How to Excel in a Corporate Career While Building Your Personal Brand

Caroline Gurney has been CEO of Future Generation since 2021, the charitable investment group that is Australia's first listed investment company to combine financial and social returns. Caroline has also served on the board since 2019.

Caroline Gurney is well known in media circles and was the Managing Director and Head of Marketing and Corporate Communications for Australasia and Deputy Communication Officer for Asia Pacific at UBS.

Before joining UBS in 2002, Caroline was Vice President and Director of Corporate Affairs for Asia Pacific at Citibank. In addition to her roles in Australia, she worked in Singapore, Hong Kong, and London.

Caroline is also a member of the Ascham School Council and the Centennial Park & Moore Park Trust, a director of Our Watch, a charity focused on preventing violence against women and children, an ambassador for the Australian Indigenous Education Foundation, and a former member of Chief Executive Women.

How Caroline Identifies Herself as a Brand and Sets Herself Apart

Caroline expressed her deep appreciation for brands and the values they embody.

Having collaborated with renowned brands in the financial services sector, she never considered herself a brand in her own right.

Instead, she identified herself as the CEO of Future Generation—an integral role that held great significance for her.

Being entrusted with decision-making, Caroline understood the expectations placed on her by shareholders and her dedicated team.

Caroline acknowledged that her position as CEO was further reinforced by the support of Future Generation's boards and chairs.

While others might perceive her as a brand, she didn't view herself solely as Caroline Gurney but as someone striving to remain relevant and excel in her role.

She strongly desired to perform exceptionally well, driven by her unwavering commitment to integrity, trustworthiness, and work ethic.

In her eyes, being associated with a brand meant being an integral part of the company she worked for.

Caroline explained that her association with Future Generation began during her tenure at UBS, a highly esteemed and widely recognised brand.

Having dedicated 18 years of her career to UBS, she also served on the board of Future Generation Australia alongside Geoff Wilson and other exceptional individuals for three years.

During her time on the board, Caroline demonstrated a genuine commitment to the core values of Future Generation, which emphasised the importance of generating investment returns while making a positive social impact.

The company recognised her passion and believed she could propel it to the next development phase. They also witnessed firsthand her contributions and efforts while serving on the board, which instilled a sense of trust.

The company acknowledged Caroline's possession of the necessary skills and ensured she would receive adequate support during the transition from a vast global organisation like UBS to a comparatively smaller yet agile boutique firm.

The decision to appoint Caroline was founded on trust and the belief that she would guide the company towards future growth.

Although Caroline acknowledged the association of her personal brand with hard work, she also emphasised effective communication, articulating the company's objectives, and delivering a profound impact

Caroline expressed her strong desire to make a meaningful difference, which was important to her.

She firmly believed that she could only assume the CEO role in an organisation with a clear purpose.

While she acknowledged the possibility of working for another organisation, it would require them to truly uphold their values and have a sense of purpose.

Caroline remained deeply committed to her current endeavour and was determined to see it progress to the next stage.

She recognised the transferability of her skills across different contexts. However, what mattered most to her was aligning her personal values with the organisation.

To ensure this alignment, Caroline conducted thorough due diligence by engaging extensively with the CEO and other board directors, delving into the intricacies of their work and values.

Caroline emphasised the significance of believing in the work one does. In her view, without a genuine belief in the cause, one could never reach their full potential, not only for personal growth but also for the benefit of shareholders in the company.

What Happened When Caroline’s Values Were Challenged?

Early in Caroline's career, she encountered a situation where her values were tested.

Fresh out of college with her degree, she worked for a small marketing company. It was a founder-led company, and the founder's son was also part of the organisation.

Caroline couldn't help but notice that the direction the son wanted to steer the company in didn't align with her own values.

Realising that she didn't feel comfortable with this misalignment, she decided to explore other opportunities in the job market because she knew that voicing her concerns would have no real impact on the situation.

Now, she understood that every role she pursued had to enable her to make a meaningful impact and remain true to her own beliefs and aspirations. This lesson has stayed with her over the years, influencing her decisions in every subsequent role she has taken on.

In every role, Caroline believed there lies a challenge that fuels her engagement and commitment.

She considered herself fortunate to have worked for an exceptional company in London, where she is now an alumnus. This company, known as the leading financial marketing agency in the UK, still maintains a strong connection with her.

When Caroline joined the firm, she found deep resonance with its values and beliefs, which allowed her to work on accounts that ignited her passion.

As Caroline dedicated herself and excelled in her work, she swiftly ascended to the partner position.

The firm's dedication not only to its clients but also to its employees left a lasting impression on her.

She was inspired to work even harder for an organisation that fostered such a remarkable culture. Since that experience, Caroline has always sought out companies with great cultures, a mindset she cultivated during her twenties.

Once one discovered a fantastic culture, she believed it was worth cherishing and never giving up.

When Caroline reminisced about her twenties, she recalled her strong desire to explore opportunities abroad. During that time, she diligently explored numerous job prospects.

Being in her twenties, she had the advantage of being a versatile professional capable of taking on various roles.

Caroline eventually joined Citigroup, and her position entailed serving as the regional head for a segment of the consumer bank and the private bank in Asia. She found great fulfilment in this role, primarily due to the company's robust culture.

As a new business in the Asian market, they had an exceptional management team that she wholeheartedly believed in.

Together, they ventured into untapped markets, driven by a genuine commitment to quality following the Asian crisis.

Transitioning to UBS, Caroline held a deep admiration for the remarkable culture of Australia. She actively embraced and contributed to it.

Acknowledging the industry-wide impact of events like the Royal Commission and the Aged Care Commision, she affirmed the significance of selecting an organisation that aligns with one's values, where an individual can be relevant and make meaningful contributions.

How Others Perceive and Value Caroline's Leadership Qualities

Several years ago, Caroline had the privilege of attending a captivating presentation on personal branding by a remarkable lawyer. The event occurred approximately 15 years ago, but its impact on her was profound.

She distinctly remembered being in awe of the speaker's insightful explanation of personal branding.

During the presentation, the lawyer posed a question to the audience, asking if they had chosen to retain their maiden names. Caroline distinctly recalled the response: "Yes, I did." The reason behind this decision became apparent as Caroline delved into conversations with various individuals.

It became evident that establishing a strong network, nurturing connections, and maintaining a lasting impression were not easy tasks in a highly competitive and challenging world.

Inspired by the lawyer's teachings, Caroline began to identify three key elements that she believed were crucial to personal branding, concepts that had also been discussed in my book.

The importance of being a trusted advisor, actively participating in conversations, and remaining relevant through hard work resonated deeply with her.

One component of Caroline's personal brand was her integrity and reputation, which were well-known and highly regarded. However, her personal brand extended beyond that. It encompassed a holistic view of her identity.

If one were to observe Caroline outside the work environment, within her family, a different side of her would be apparent.

As a mother, a wife, and a friend, she was known for her caring nature and willingness to go out of her way to help others, regardless of their background or circumstances.

Caroline's personal brand also extended to her community engagement. People didn't just perceive her in a professional capacity; they saw her as someone who could provide support and enhance the values and mission of the community initiatives she was involved in.

While this role didn't fit the traditional CEO hat, it was an important aspect of her overall brand.

Caroline held positions on several boards, including Our Watch, a prominent non-profit organisation dedicated to preventing violence against women and their children, which received government funding.

She also engaged in philanthropic activities, and her involvement in these organisations allowed her to exercise different skills, such as influencing, advising, and opening doors for positive change.

Caroline took great pride in the achievements made through her contributions, as she recognised the importance of using her skills to help others.

How To Build A Positive Professional Reputation

Caroline reflected on a significant incident from her previous work in the media industry. It revolved around a complex transaction that required her involvement.

As the deal progressed, she encountered a situation where she was urged to convey a particular message without fully comprehending its meaning or agreeing with its appropriateness.

Caroline was taken aback by the suggestion to simply deliver the message as instructed. She refused to compromise her integrity by relaying information she didn't fully understand or believe in.

Determined to maintain her reputation for honesty, she took a different approach. She proactively reached out to a journalist involved in the matter, admitting that she was uncertain about the details and hesitant to provide misleading information.

Caroline remained silent instead, recognising that her reputation was more significant than any deal. She firmly believed in the importance of being truthful and transparent, even if it meant responding with a "no comment."

Throughout her career, Caroline witnessed numerous instances where individuals tried to deceive others, only to face the consequences later on.

She held the belief that everything she shared should withstand public scrutiny. If her words were to be published on the front page of a newspaper the next day, she wanted to stand by them with pride and confidently share them with her loved ones, knowing that she had spoken the truth.

Learning How to Stand Out and Succeed

When Caroline worked in Asia for Citigroup and contemplated a move to Australia with the same organisation, she conversed with Gordon Dickinson, who held a co-CEO position alongside Chris Mackay.

During their discussion, Caroline expressed her desire to relocate to Australia. The executives inquired about her potential contributions, highlighting that they represented the leading investment bank in the country.

Given that their interactions were limited to phone conversations, they questioned the rationale behind employing her without any prior face-to-face meetings.

In response, Caroline enumerated her extensive professional background, having worked in London, Singapore, and Japan. She emphasised her comprehensive understanding of media dynamics in these regions and her track record of making a positive impact.

Caroline also mentioned her involvement with the Citigroup Foundation, where she contributed to projects related to microfinance and various other areas.

Confident in her capabilities, Caroline firmly believed she could offer a distinctive perspective. Recognising the importance of differentiation in Australia and the wider Asia Pacific region, she stressed the value she could bring to the table.

Intrigued by her response, the executives sought clarification on what precisely set her apart. In reply, Caroline highlighted her unique perspective, which she believed was crucial for setting oneself apart and excelling in the competitive landscape of both Australia and the broader Asia Pacific region.

Following the conversation, Chris Mackay extended a job offer to Caroline, culminating in a challenging dialogue requiring her to delve deep into her capabilities.

The unexpected nature of the questions forced her to reflect and articulate her value proposition. She passionately conveyed her determination to learn and adapt swiftly, despite acknowledging her lack of prior experience in investment banking.

Reflecting on the interview, Caroline found it an enlightening experience where she had to define her skills and what she could contribute. The desire to secure the role fueled her efforts throughout the process.

Ultimately, Caroline commenced her tenure in a relatively junior position but ultimately ascended to the board, earning a spot on both the local and Asia Pacific boards. This achievement was a testament to her relentless dedication and unwavering commitment.

How to Stay Relevant and Thrive in Your Career

Caroline employed various techniques to maintain her organisational relevance, consistently delivering results. She was diligent in her communication efforts, constantly engaging with others and bringing them along on her journey.

Networking also played a crucial role, as Caroline made a point to attend as many relevant events and gatherings as possible.

She professionally approached her interactions, always willing to take on tasks when others were seeking assistance.

A notable moment occurred when Caroline sat down with Matthew Grounds, a highly esteemed banker, and Chris Mackay.

They thoroughly examined the landscape, analysing journalists, opinion leaders, and other influential figures. Through this collaborative effort, they formulated a comprehensive plan. Caroline wasted no time in putting the plan into action.

Throughout her career, she had the privilege of working under exceptional leaders whom she viewed as mentors or coaches and individuals who excelled in their respective fields.

Seeking their guidance and advice became a consistent practice, ensuring that she learned from the very best.

Caroline believed that actively seeking opportunities to help others and consistently going above and beyond in her role played a significant role in maintaining relevance.

To ensure her ongoing relevance, Caroline always had a well-thought-out plan. The realisation struck her during a conversation when someone asked about her three-year plan, prompting her to reflect on her one-year plan and consider extending it further. Determined, she developed a comprehensive long-term plan.

Recognising the diverse goals of the 15,000 shareholders across different generations, Caroline knew that doing her best required extensive knowledge. So she immersed herself in reading, devouring newspapers, blogs, and social media content.

She sought wisdom from industry gurus through textbooks and even indulged in novels to foster meaningful connections with others.

For Caroline, maintaining relevance meant actively engaging with shareholders. She firmly believed in the power of roadshows and personal interactions to connect with stakeholders.

Recognising that she couldn't be an expert in everything, she leveraged the expertise of remarkable individuals, such as exceptional not-for-profits and fund managers, bringing them along when necessary.

Caroline believed demonstrating generosity and giving back was key to maintaining relevance.

She was convinced that people naturally gravitated towards understanding the motivations behind such acts.

The government's pledge to double philanthropy and social impact by 2030 made it a pertinent topic, ensuring anyone engaged in that conversation remained relevant.

In Caroline's view, relevance extended beyond societal matters and encompassed personal lives as well.

It was essential for individuals to have a voice and actively participate in shaping their own existence. She cherished her diverse group of friends, each contributing unique perspectives.

Some focused on their work, while others devoted their time to non-profit organisations or held positions in publicly listed companies.

Caroline valued the different dimensions they brought to her life and vice versa.

Friendships held particular significance for Caroline, especially those with fellow parents.

Recognising that children go through various stages of growth and development, she found solace. She sought guidance from friends who had experienced similar milestones, even as her daughter grew older.

Caroline emphasised that she never assessed people based on their job titles or material possessions. Instead, she valued their character and contributions to their friendships, appreciating the essence of who they were as individuals.

The Power of Having Mentors and Guides

Caroline attributed her upbringing to having a significant influence on her character, instilling her with essential skills and values.

Her family played a pivotal role in shaping her, teaching her the importance of loyalty, faithfulness, and other life lessons.

Caroline's grandmother, hailing from Sheffield, had a humble background and worked in the coal mines. Caroline vividly recalled her grandmother's advice to find happiness in work and friendships—a sentiment that deeply resonated with her.

She internalised that while jobs could change multiple times throughout one's career, cultivating lasting friendships required continuous effort akin to commitment in marriage and family.

Therefore, family held immense significance for Caroline, and she frequently sought guidance from her husband, Matthew, whom she regarded as the person whose opinions mattered most to her.

Caroline was often the only woman in the room throughout her professional journey. However, she considered herself exceptionally fortunate to have been guided by remarkable women and men who played vital roles in her success.

Their mentorship and support propelled her forward, and she acknowledged that she wouldn't have achieved her current position without them.

Making a Positive Impact by Mentoring Younger People

Caroline expressed a deep inclination towards mentoring and providing opportunities to younger individuals, driven by her own experiences.

Whenever someone approached her seeking guidance, she found it difficult to refuse. Her immediate response would be an enthusiastic "Yes!"

She had mentored numerous young women throughout her career, although she had mentored only a handful of young men.

She would typically lend her guidance during pivotal moments in their professional journeys, such as when they contemplated making changes or sought assistance in navigating large organisations—areas where she had successfully traversed herself.

Caroline took pride in mentoring remarkable Indigenous women through the Australian Digital Education Foundation.

The experience proved immensely fulfilling for her, and she acknowledged the valuable lessons she learned.

Reflecting on her time with these mentees, Caroline remarked that it would be easy to say she learned more from them than they did from her.

She also believed the mentor-mentee relationship was mutually beneficial, with both parties contributing to each other's growth and development.

Caroline firmly acknowledged the importance of mentoring others, emphasising its value for personal and professional growth.

Caroline’s Wisdom for the Younger Generation

Caroline acknowledged the challenges of starting and striving to establish one's reputation and personal brand.

She noted that securing desirable roles and excelling in them can be quite daunting. However, she firmly believed in the power of persistence.

Caroline emphasised the importance of trying repeatedly and persevering, for she was convinced that genuine effort would eventually yield positive results.

In her view, building a successful career requires patience, so you must remain steadfast in defining your values and personal identity.

Caroline recognised that change played a vital role in personal growth. Whether switching industries or reevaluating one's own convictions, these experiences offered valuable insights into one's individuality.

Asking questions played a significant role in Caroline's approach. She encouraged others to be inquisitive, for it was through curiosity that one garnered attention.

Caroline believed that standing out didn't always necessitate constant showmanship. Rather, it could be achieved by posing relevant questions, actively participating, expressing willingness to take on challenges, and demonstrating a strong presence.

She regarded these qualities as key components in making a lasting impression.

Final Messages

I want to thank Caroline Gurney for sharing her insights and experiences with us.

Thank you for listening to this episode. Please leave a five-star review and subscribe for more episodes if you enjoyed them.

If you'd like to learn more about developing your personal brand, please visit garrybrowne.com.au to get in touch or grab a copy of Brand New Brand You.

How Human Rights Advocacies Can Impact Your Brand and Reputation

Actively managing your personal brand is critical if you want to significantly impact the areas of your life important to you. 

What you say and do influences how people perceive you, so take note that your personal branding will determine how successfully you’ll be able to make an impact in life.

Craig Foster is a former Australian captain of the Socceroos, broadcaster, adjunct professor, author, and human rights activist. 

In 2019, the Australian Financial Review recognised Craig as a true Australian leader and the Sydney Morning Herald as one of the people that defined 2019.

He was the recipient of the 2020 New South Wales Government Humanitarian Award for his work with sport and human rights, an Australian Human Rights Commission medal finalist, was awarded the 2020 Australian Muslim Council Abyssinian medal, and was a finalist for the New South Wales 2021 Australian of the Year. 

In 2021, Craig became a member of the Order of Australia. 

He also worked with the Australian Immigration Minister Alex Hawke and Foreign Minister Maurice Payne, as well as trusted members of the Australian Parliament. 

Craig used his sporting and political connections to secure the safety of many Afghans. 

Craig was recognised as an Australian Father of the Year in September 2022 for his human rights and humanitarian work that impacts kids from many different cultural backgrounds and, aside from his three amazing biological children, for his support of 15 young Afghan girls, who refer to him as their Australian dad, after being evacuated from Cabal in September 2021, and in October 2022, for distinguished service to immigration by the Migration Institute of Australia.

Today, Craig is an advisor on athlete activism for some of Australia's most prominent sports people and an adjunct professor of sport and social responsibility at Torrens University in Australia, where he has developed an online course called Sport for Good, which teaches athletes and sports practitioners how to utilise sport for social justice and progressive issues around the world. 

Craig Foster's Insights About His Brand

Craig didn’t view himself as a brand per se, but he recognised the power of public perception and the social and political capital that accompanied it, and he intends to leverage this power to benefit the causes he supports.

According to him, he had never planned to promote himself to the public as a particular person. Instead, he aspires to live by a set of principles and let the public see him in the light of his actions, discourse, and advocacy work.

Craig's passion for social justice had always been a part of him. Even as a young child, he felt strongly against injustice. 

His passion continued to develop as he grew older, particularly during his teenage years, when he often served as captain of sports teams. 

In this leadership position, he prioritised standing up for those less powerful and needing assistance.

As he progressed in his professional career, first as a soccer player and then in Socceroo, Craig became involved in various social justice areas, including homelessness, domestic violence, gender equality, and First Nations rights. 

Although his involvement was often through football, his dedication to these causes remained constant.

As Craig has grown older, he has become more skilled, educated, and capable of bringing these issues to light.

When asked about his opinion on whether social justice referred to any particular areas or if it was a broad perspective, Craig explained that injustice per se always offended him. 

He mentioned that while he came from a background of very average means, his father was a hard worker who had to give up a lot to raise three sons in a country area. 

He never lacked anything, and all doors were open to him as he progressed through his young sporting career. 

He recognised that he was in the cultural and racial majority, spoke the language, and looked the same as everyone else. 

He understood how to interact with people, and no one ever looked at him askance or thought his religion was a problem. 

All forms of injustice offend Craig, and it's just a question of time, energy, and the area where he feels it would be most impactful.

How Others Perceive Craig 

Craig didn't really spend too much time thinking about how others perceived him.

He mentioned, "And one of the reasons is because I think when it comes to fighting injustices, it can be dangerous to focus too much on what the public is going to think about what I say or whether I want to embed myself in this issue because quite often, injustice accompanies marginalisation and demonisation and externalisation." 

Craig used the example of the refugee situation and how someone may hesitate to help because it could affect their brand.

He valued the importance of reputation or personal brand, as it can influence people's willingness to listen or follow in one's footsteps. 

But he stressed that it's a delicate balance, and he's prepared to fight against injustices regardless of how it might affect his personal brand or reputation.

The Importance of Craig’s Reputation

Craig, a person known for fighting for causes related to fairness, equality, and humanity, explained that he has always been prepared to fight for what he believes in, even if it affects his reputation. 

At 53, he has developed a reputation that many people find important because of the causes he fought for, even if some disagreed with them.

He said, "The most important thing in my view, sitting here now in my middle age if you're talking to young people, is authenticity, purpose, and courage. They are much more important than trying to curate what you see as your reputation or your brand."

Craig believed that his reputation would become secondary if he took actions consistent with injustice. 

While he understood that some people might prioritise reputation, like in a corporate environment, it's straightforward for him - he fights for causes where people are being harmed. He didn’t care whether it enhanced or damaged his reputation.

Craig has developed a course called "Sport for Good" for Torrens University. 

It aims to educate athletes and sports administrators about social justice and human rights frameworks, and it provides them with tools for campaigning and using their platforms to speak out. 

He believed it was important for young Australians to have this kind of education, as he never had it when he was young. 

Craig advised the young generation to act based on appropriate values, principles, and purposes, which will ultimately build their reputation. 

He cited his own experience as a refugee advocate in Australia, where being an advocate carried social and political risks, as an example of the risk one must be prepared to take when fighting for certain causes.

But he believed that taking that step is necessary if one is acting on an underlying fundamental basis of helping others based on basic human rights.

Over time, if one continued to be consistent in working towards human rights and social justice, one would eventually develop a reputation as someone courageous enough to take on these challenges.

Craig believed that climate action was a good example of this. Twenty years ago, advocating for climate action and acknowledging anthropomorphic climate change were not widely accepted in Australia, and people who did so were often seen as loony activists. 

But today, such actions command deep respect because they are seen as fighting for a worthy cause—a liveable planet for everyone.

Craig believed that social change was necessary to challenge society, and he felt it was important to tell a country or the world when they were wrong. 

Craig also recognised that his experience in the media had given him a unique set of skills that allowed him to navigate difficult conversations and bring the majority of people along with him on important issues. 

He understood how to craft effective narratives and messages and felt others could also develop these skills.

For Craig, leadership is about many things, but ultimately it's about trust. 

People want to join causes with others they trust and who do things for the right reasons. 

To be an effective leader, one must genuinely care for others and their well-being. When a team knows their leader cares about them, they will respect the hierarchy and follow that leader.

But when a leader has a hierarchical title but doesn't care about the people under them, they are not seen as authentic leaders, and people won't join them on their journey. 

Often, those with titles aren't the real leaders, despite what their job description may say.

Craig believed one could not be too far ahead of the group to be a leader. 

Instead, they must bring as many people as possible on the journey with them. This means working with the group based on their current capabilities, even if the leader has knowledge that is five years ahead. 

The leader should be far enough ahead to make the group comfortable but not so far that they feel left behind.

True leadership is about distributing authority and power among the people. 

He saw himself as a guide, not an owner, of social movements and believed that the people owned these movements. 

Craig knew he needed all the answers and experts to contribute and shape the steps of the movement. 

He also recognised the importance of distributed ownership in any social movement, which is critical to effective leadership.

Craig invited the most brilliant people to join the movement and shape it with their expertise.

The movement is about the group coming together to achieve something good for society, families, or someone. 

This approach is Craig's best form of leadership because it empowers people and allows them to contribute their skills and knowledge towards a common goal. 

He encouraged everyone to enjoy the journey and to do incredible things along the way.

The Origin of Craig’s Values

When asked where Craig discovered his values, he shared how he grew up in a loving family in a community-minded Lismore, New South Wales environment.

He was surrounded by values of equality and helping each other out. 

Whenever someone needed something, families would provide it, and the community would come together to complete tasks such as building a new tennis facility. 

Craig was drawn to teamwork and equality, and while sport is largely about personal ambition, he preferred achieving goals within a team environment. 

He didn't think he would be a good individual athlete because he didn't find joy in achieving personal titles but found fulfilment in helping others. 

Craig's values of sharing and helping others were instilled in him at a young age. 

He has evolved to become more skilled at addressing social injustices and advocating for vulnerable groups. 

He spent his time now trying to achieve with and for groups being mistreated.

For Craig, beliefs should always change and evolve as one gain more knowledge and wisdom throughout their life journey. 

He's constantly aware of the gaps in his own knowledge and strives to fill them by learning about various subjects such as politics, sociology, and history. 

While his values remain consistent, such as his belief in equality for all, his beliefs about how to manifest those values and their specific issues can change as he gains more understanding through education and experience. 

Craig has always been open to challenging his own beliefs and expects to hold different beliefs in the future as he continues to learn and grow. 

Throughout his life, his approach to understanding these issues has been consistent - he asks himself, "Who is being affected? Who doesn't have the power that I have? Where can I translate that to? Who do I need to fight for? Where is the injustice?" These questions stem from his underlying values and guide his actions.

The current time is very challenging because even the concept of truth is being challenged. 

COVID and climate change have challenged scientific truths, and misinformation and disinformation are rampant. 

Craig believed that the new generation of Australians and people worldwide face challenges they didn't have before. 

According to Craig, "Challenging orthodoxy is incredibly important. Otherwise, you won't find injustices because governments and societies don't like to acknowledge them. So they're very often hidden." 

He emphasised that in doing so, we need to rely on fundamental truths, empirical knowledge, and data rather than flawed knowledge bases or conspiracy theories. 

Craig was concerned about the damage to democracy caused by conspiracy theorists perpetuating misinformation worldwide. 

He acknowledged that questioning is important, but he believed it should be done based on interrogating sources and working to find accurate information.

Have Craig’s Values Ever Been Tested?

Craig reflected on how his values were often tested in his career, particularly regarding social justice issues such as refugees, climate change, and global conflicts. 

He believed human rights were objective and universal, meaning advocating for them often led to highly contentious political areas.

While at SBS as a public broadcaster, Craig understood the importance of maintaining political impartiality and reporting accurately and truthfully in a nonpartisan manner. 

This was fundamentally necessary to democracy, as the media is called the "fourth estate" and is meant to hold governments accountable truthfully and courageously.

Craig mentioned, "The Australian media should be equally able to hold Anthony Albanese or a Labour government accountable as they are Scott Morrison and a Liberal government, both on the foundations of accountability and truth."

Craig thought that highly partisan media was one of the biggest challenges faced in Australia. 

Despite being a contractor rather than an employee, he had been part of SBS for nearly 18 years and deeply appreciated their values.

For him, advocating for refugee rights was a matter of human rights and being politically impartial. 

However, he knew it was a sensitive area, and there were concerns about where to draw the line. 

Craig realised that to be a true advocate for refugees; he would likely have to leave SBS, which he eventually did.

He knew he could have advocated for refugees in a limited way and still maintained his position at SBS, but he felt it would have been inauthentic. 

He felt he was responsible for advocating for refugees as an Australian of some prominence and influence. 

Although he was aware that leaving SBS would put his entire broadcast career at risk, he believed in the issue so strongly that he was prepared to take that risk. 

Craig left SBS and subsequently changed the policy on refugee rights.

Later, he had the offer to go back to broadcasting football with a different broadcaster, Channel Nine. 

He negotiated his right to advocate for any social justice issue under their social media policy, meaning they had to accept him as a social justice advocate and broadcaster, not just a broadcaster.

As a government broadcaster, SBS must maintain strict political impartiality. 

Therefore, when someone like Craig advocates for human rights, which have political implications, it raises questions. 

Craig's firm view, having been involved and understanding it from both sides, is that advocating for human rights is apolitical. 

He said, "In fact, it's the only neutral, objective, non-political framework we have in the entire world. But Australia doesn't quite understand that yet, because we don't talk about it too much. So I didn't really expect SBS or necessarily Australian public taxpayers who are funding SBS to come to the determination."

Craig cites the recent incident with Gary Lineker, a legendary former captain of the English national football team, who is a key football broadcaster for the BBC, which is similar to SBS as a government broadcaster in the UK. 

Lineker spoke about refugees, mistreatment, and the demonising language used to describe them. 

Craig wrote an article in the SMHS today arguing that Lineker's actions were justified, but the BBC stood him down, claiming that his actions were politically partisan against the government. 

Craig believed that he had done the same thing as Lineker and that Lineker had stood up for human rights, which every human must do, regardless of whether they work for a public broadcast, the public service, or anyone else, so he hoped to see more conversations like this in Australia.

Sportspeople’s Selection Process

According to Craig, athletes, particularly professional athletes, have codes of conduct that require them to maintain the reputation of their clubs and leagues. 

He noted that legal boundaries are in place to ensure that athletes adhere to these codes, and he knew this because he was previously the chairman of a players union and was involved in the bargaining of these codes.

The public sees older, legendary athletes as one of the most trusted groups in Australia because, for Craig, this is due to their past accomplishments and the charitable work they do outside of sports. 

But Craig asserted that athletes are not different from others in society and are also flawed. 

As humans, he believed everyone has room for improvement and that our journey through life is about learning and becoming better individuals.

Athletes are not immune to misbehaviour related to violence, sexual abuse, or any other form of wrongdoing. 

They are just like any other person in the population, except for their exceptional physical talents and abilities to excel in a particular social and professional environment. 

The public often admires their skill set and characteristics, such as their resilience and ability to perform under intense pressure.

But despite their high profile and influence, athletes can be just as vulnerable to misinformation and dangerous conspiracy theories as anyone else. 

Their advocacy efforts can sometimes do more harm than good without proper education and understanding of human rights and other important issues.

Those athletes with the intellect, knowledge, and application to understand broader social issues and utilise their platform for genuine good can significantly impact society. 

They can bring Australia along on the journey, using the right language and sensitivity to achieve positive change. However, not all athletes possess these qualities and capabilities.

Some of us are comfortable stepping forward into the public limelight and taking risks, while others aren't, and social activists can also make a difference in different ways. 

It is courageous to stand up against racism or call out companies for their impact on the planet, and every action to help others or the planet is important. 

Craig encouraged everyone to strive to improve daily while recognising their flawed human nature.

Does Craig Foster Maintain His Brand and Relevance? 

Craig was not concerned about maintaining his relevance and brand in the future. 

He recognised that he had been privileged throughout his life, with many opportunities to succeed. 

He's a strong anti-racism campaigner, drawing on skills learned in sports, such as focus, commitment, analysis, iteration, and the willingness to fail.

Craig's interested in using what he already has to make an impact, and that impact is still being determined. 

If he felt strongly enough about an issue, such as something that goes against what Australia should stand for, he was willing to put everything at risk to fight for it.

His focus is on helping all people be better together. He's involved in the Republic movement because he sees it as an opportunity to bring Australia's values of equality, representation, inclusion, multiculturalism, anti-racism, and reconciliation to life. 

Craig didn't know where he would end up in the next 30 years of his professional life, but he was certain that his underlying purpose and guiding principles would always remain the same

He was not worried about his relevance and would prefer to see other more skilled and brilliant people take the lead in bringing Australia along on the journey towards a better future. 

He wanted to see people treated with respect and dignity, and he wanted Australia to reconcile with its history and be proud of its First Nations people. 

Craig believed in a truly multicultural society, where people of all backgrounds have direct representation and the power to go to Parliament, become Prime Minister, and even be heads of state. 

Craig’s Take On Mentorship

Achievement is a product of teamwork rather than individual success - this is what Craig believed in.

He has set out to achieve many things in his life, but none has been accomplished alone. 

He mentioned that he could not be a "Socceroo" (a member of the Australian national soccer team) without the help of a coach or a team since soccer is a team sport. 

Craig learned about equality and the value of teamwork from playing team sports as a child, and a team can only succeed if its members see themselves as equals and work together to achieve the same goal. 

He felt that his biggest skill is bringing together networks of brilliant people, empowering them, and letting them do amazing things. 

Craig didn't consider himself an expert in everything, nor did he seek to lead from the front, as this would not work. 

He's the most visible in the social justice campaigns he leads due to his communication skills and profile, but behind the scenes are some of the most brilliant people he can bring.

He knew he could not achieve his goals alone and constantly sought out people who knew more than him to help him get where he wanted to be and bring Australia along with him. 

Craig didn't consider himself special but rather someone with unique capabilities. He believed everyone has exceptional skills and something to contribute to the world. 

Our goal should be to empower people and show them what they are capable of, as that is how we can make the world a better place.

Craig explained that he has no formal mentors but has always been open to learning from others by asking them about their skills and how they achieved success. 

As a former elite athlete, Craig mentioned that coming out of sport can be a narrow strand of life, requiring a significant focus that can limit exposure to different areas of learning. 

However, he has worked hard to understand these areas and has been willing to approach people and ask them about their skills and techniques.

He believed that being open to learning and recognising what one does not know is important when surrounding oneself with people with broader skills than oneself. 

Some people are willing to share their knowledge, while others may not, but Craig remained committed to learning and seeking knowledge from others.

Final Message and Outro

I want to thank Craig Foster for sharing his insights, experiences, and advocacies with us. 

Thank you for listening to this episode. Please leave a five-star review and subscribe for more episodes if you enjoyed them. 

If you'd like to learn more about developing your personal brand, please visit garrybrowne.com.au to get in touch or grab a copy of Brand New Brand You. 

The Power of Reputation & Relevancy

Actively managing your personal brand is critical if you want to significantly impact the areas of your life important to you. 

What you say and what you do influences how people perceive you, so take note that your personal branding will determine how successfully you’ll be able to make an impact in life.

Emma is a principal consultant at Derwent, which helps businesses thrive by identifying and connecting with high-impact talent, bringing to the task more than 30 years as a journalist and communications professional.

Reporting in Australia and as a foreign correspondent, she developed a wide network of relationships across several industries. 

Emma honed her people skills at the country's three major media businesses during the most innovative time in digital news and information delivery history.

Leading teams to cover important world events, Emma was popular with audiences and gained the confidence of key talent who trusted her with their stories.

Before joining Derwent, Emma spent a year advising leadership teams at the intersection of marketing and issues management, helping them create engaging content and to leverage a dynamic media environment.

Emma is a strategic thinker who thrives on solving complex challenges. 

Passionate about diversity and inclusion, she is excited about using her skills in research and analysis to match terrific people with excellent opportunities.

How Emma Identifies Herself As A Brand 

Emma said we must see ourselves as representatives of our families, the businesses we work for, and the communities we live in.

Every interaction is a representation of who we are. In that regard, she believes there’s a brand element.

Although she can’t say that she’s always thought about herself that way, she knows that she’s been a public figure in the past.

She’s aware of how she is perceived and its importance in other elements of her life.

Emma is an ambassador for Camp Quality and has been involved with them since 1999. 

She wants to be a public figure when it rocks around raising money in September for them. 

She wants people to be aware of children battling cancer because it's been very hard for charities to gain attention and the requisite funds to continue doing their extraordinary work for the last few years.

To that extent, she’s still a public figure regarding the things she wants to support, her professional life, and her relationships.

How Others Perceive Emma

Emma left ABC in 2020 after being there for 18 years and being a Channel 9 reporter for nearly ten years.

She started her career at News Corp with a byline in the Herald Sun newspaper for over three years.

She was publicly recognised, and her departure from ABC in 2020 was also public.

Emma mentioned, “In fact, the press knew about it before I knew about it, which was particularly hurtful.”

Her departure from ABC has been ventilated in an unkind manner.

She shared that when she left and started a corporate career, Emma talked to a chairman in the top 10 list of companies she had gotten to know well over her 30-year career.

She interviewed him in various iterations as a CEO, as a chairman, and as an advisor. 

She also used to call him for advice on stories and things she heard.

When they discussed what Emma might do next, she shared with him that she was pretty upset about how things were reported.

But his response was, “Emma, I generally believe what I read.”

His statement stung her. 

She said, “I don't think he realised he'd stung me the way he did because obviously, so much was written about the manner and reasons for my departure from the ABC that was so awful and wrong, and malicious and terrible.”

For her, people believe what they read, and it's very hard to get ahead of that. 

There’s so much nuance to things because they are never exactly one way or exactly another way. 

Getting out from under bad publicity can be very difficult if you’re a public person. 

Emma met one of Australia's leading barristers in the defamation space on the advice of some of her lawyer friends.

When she went to his office, he had all the newspaper articles with notes. She recalled what he said, "I've been in this business a long time and journalists suing journalists never ends well.”

We can feel so aggrieved about people saying things that are not true or hurtful. 

Climbing out from under is tricky because we're all human, so it's our instinct to fight back somehow. 

It's hard to know how to do that in a dignified way and how to do it in a way that protects those around you.

Dealing with crises in your personal brand is like having children. Unfortunately, it doesn’t come with a manual.
One thing that Emma didn’t resolve is that she did speak publicly through her own social media channels to say what she wanted to say.

She attempted to write a few of the wrongs that had been said about her and then shut it down.

People in corporate Australia, in the media, and on the sidelines said that she didn’t have to say anymore. 

But for Emma, sometimes you just have to vent. It's not always the best thing to do. But you've got to do what you feel is right. 

The Importance Of Reputation For Emma

Reputation has always been important for Emma. She said that when you're publicly recognised, it follows you everywhere.

So to work, you need to be trusted in the workplace, and you need to be not only a trusted colleague.

You must be a trusted face to carry your brand and business.

Even if you’re not a salaried employee, you still represent yourself, your family, and your community. 

You must think about who you are and what's important. 

Circling back to the social media posts she wrote after leaving ABC. 

She said they were about protecting who she thought she was, which was being maligned and misrepresented.

Ultimately, she believes that what it boils down to is not about the minutiae but about your character and who you know you are.

How Emma’s Reputation Was Established

Emma found that she wanted to be a journalist from a very young age, but it was not easy.

Her parents didn't think it was a sensible career path because, back in Italy, only men of a certain age and stature from a certain family rose to the ranks of distinguished journalists. 

So, as a young woman from a migrant family in Australia, it seems like there's just no chance.

But Emma was determined to study hard and succeed, so she did.

When she became a television journalist, there used to be a lot of murmurings in the newsrooms she was in because the leadership ranks were always men, commenting about how women worked.

Emma worked in newsrooms where women weren't allowed to wear skirts. 

She knows television reporters who've gone on to become news directors, but she doesn’t know any female reporters who've gone on to be news directors. 

She doesn’t know many female reporters who've gone on to be in management because people see women in front of a camera as news readers and men in front of a camera as being quite authoritative.

She believes that those need to be addressed. 

For her, the way people's preconceived ideas of you can interfere with your ability to protect or carve a reputation. 

Emma thinks that many people (both men and women) are ingrained with an expectation of what it means to be a man and a woman.

The expectation is mired in this idea that women, generally, if they had it their way, wouldn't work.

They work because they have to, and men work because they need to support the family. 

Emma finds it unfortunate that a leader will say they’re looking for a woman who can lead but won't create an environment where a woman could thrive.

Emma’s Values Being Different From Others

Emma has written a chapter in a book called Through Her Eyes which is about female foreign correspondents because she’s the generation of the first female foreign correspondent in Australia. 

In its then 80-year history, she was ABC’s only second-ever mother who was posted overseas to London.

She shared two anecdotes from another book she made into almost a comedy skit because it was farcical.

Emma got this big promotion where she was chosen as the Europe Correspondent for ABC. 

She met a beater field of six, all the others were men. She was very proud of herself and what she’d achieved.

 She was going in as a financial journalist in the middle of the global financial crisis. 

She stood on Canary Wharf as Lehman Brothers closed, and people were streaming out of that big building.

Emma was there at a very momentous time in history with her three children, who were all under three.

At that point, she was still on maternity leave when she got the job.

One time, she was trying to meet with her director of the International news division to ask where her kids go to school, how all the other ancillary stuff works, etc. 

She had none of the basic logistics sorted. She thought that since they’d been posting people overseas for more than 50 years, surely there was a division for it.

After two weeks of haranguing her director to get a meeting, someone finally saw her. 

Emma recalled what he said, “All these questions you're asking me, I don't know the answers. Normally, the wives work it out.” 

The chapter from the book Through Her Eyes is about the circumstances around which she left Channel 9 in 2021–2022 because of a misalignment of values. 

She was sent to report on the arrival of the tamper, which was the boat carrying 470 asylum seekers from Afghanistan.

They were fleeing some pretty dangerous and devastating circumstances in their own country. 

This was when the previous Conservative government was adamant that no one should come to Australia unless they'd filled out forms and done all those things required. 

The boat was intercepted by a Norwegian frigate, and the captain wanted to escort them to Australia, but they weren't allowed. 

So a deal was made with the island nation of Nauru to accept the asylum seekers. Emma rushed over there for A Current Affair on Channel 9. 

They were the first broadcast crew to film the arrival and interview then Foreign Minister Alexander Downer as he was inking the deal with the Prime Minister of Nauru. 

Under the great challenge, they had to stop someone on the side of the road and give them $200 to give them his car so they could get around the island.

The camera broke down, and they had to get a fan on it because it was overheating due to the temperatures soaring close to 50 degrees.

They didn't sleep for 36 hours to get this story to Australia for The Monday Night.

Back then, they were getting a million viewers on the show.

They decided not to run the story, even though they had the first pictures.

They had a story on a revolutionary sweat cure that they wanted to promote, so their story got shelved.

Emma said unseemly to her boss and resigned, but he wouldn’t let her leave. 

He told her to take a few days off, and she also recalled, “I didn't get sent to New York for that story, but I would have been because it was my turn, but I was in Purgatory.”

Emma then went to the subsequent election in October 2001 and reported from the tally room for Channel 9.

They were trying to keep her happy by getting her to stay, but she’d be too upset that they didn’t tell their story.

She believes it's a truism in journalism that you don't tell the story of the flood. You tell the story of the person in the flood. 

No one felt real, genuine empathy until they saw the little boy who was dead in the sand. 

There are real people in the story. 

If we were in that circumstance, what would we do? Wouldn't we get on a boat and try to take our families to safety?

Emma wanted to show those faces. But she was actively denied the ability to do it by her employer.

The chapter in the book is called What's News. It examines who decides what's news in a newspaper or on a television program. 

It's about which pictures are the most powerful. If you have good pictures, they will tell the story.

In the situation of the tamper, she could have had great pictures. But they still didn't want to tell that story, for whatever reason. 

She thought it was highly political because it led to an election. However, that's not a reason not to do it. 

Emma’s Values Were Established

When asked where she established her values, Emma answered that it was from her family. 

Her dad used to joke that he came to Australia with two pounds, so he wasn't a 10-pound pommy. He was a two-pound Italian. 

He grew that into a fairly sizable business without speaking the language and became the biggest store holder at the Victoria markets in Melbourne.

Emma and her sister went to private schools, and he bought their first cars. 

Her dad worked hard for his family, and her mother worked hard at home.

Emma often shared with younger people that up until 1966, you weren't allowed to work once you got married as a woman in Australia.

When I asked her if her values changed over time, she said they developed as her mind broadened.

It's from reading, but it’s also from being open to hearing other people's points of view.

Now that she has a daughter finishing school, Emma starts to question why it's so important that younger individuals keep studying as long as possible. 

She told her children that when you go outside of your sphere, whether going into further study or employment, you will meet a whole new raft of people from all sorts of regions and areas. 

It's about continually questioning what you thought to be true.

The reason why Emma wanted to be a journalist is that she’s always keen to learn new things and learn about people.

Stories are powerful, but you must question them rather than just accept them for what they look like.

Don't believe everything you read. Question it. 

Going back to expectations, Emma believes that we must think of child-rearing and housekeeping as jobs that need to be done by someone.

The Victorian Government did a study that Emma exclusively reported on for the ABC because she heard about it at a function.

It looked at the replacement value and the opportunity cost, the two measurements of unpaid work.

In the Victorian example, the government, through Deloitte Access Economics, did a study that found that unpaid work in the Victorian economy made up 50% of GSP, or gross state product.

Since 1985, more women than men have graduated from university in Australia. 

That’s 37 odd years, and yet, when you look at the 500 top companies in Australia, 97% of them are run by men.

A couple of generations is a long time for women to demonstrate their keenness to actively learn and further their opportunities.

Even in our legislation or paid parental leave from the Gilad government, it says that the primary carer is the mother, so it even describes the woman's role. 

Emma believes we need to stop thinking that women must always do unpaid work.

The Importance Of Relevance For Emma To Others

When talking about the topic of relevance, the first thing that popped into Emma’s head was her children.

She thinks that the older the children get, the less relevant they see you, and she’s finding that the most challenging.

So she’s still writing a lot, and she’s just written a chapter in a book.

Emma also has her memoir bubbling away in the background, which she will finish eventually because she thinks she has some things to pass on to the next generation.

Emma thinks that relevance is an interesting term because you have to ask relevant to whom and for what purpose.

It’s the same with many people who unfortunately tied their identity to their job and lost it. 

Because Emma was publicly recognised, she thinks that it’s a bit worse because people have an expectation of who you are.

So when you're not that anymore, who are you?

It's also true in that micro setting if you are an executive and lose that job. 

In her current role in executive search, Emma feels very privileged that people want to talk to her about their careers.

She feels a great obligation to help them in any way that she can, even if they don’t get the role she might be talking to them about.

Emma said, “You can think your life's going in a certain way and life being your career, and so many of us let our lives become dominated by our careers.”

There was a while where she questioned her relevance as to why people would care now that she didn’t have the ABC brand behind her.

For her, the purpose is more important than relevance. 

She wanted to know that what she was going to do had a purpose.

Emma feels that she was very fortunate that she joined a company when she first left ABC, a division of auto in general called Compare The Market, which compares financial services.

She found them terrific because they understood from the get-go that she wasn't there to have her brand aligned with theirs and to sell something.

She was there to help them communicate better.

That was a great stepping stone into new and other things in corporate Australia because she had done what she wanted in journalism. 

There wasn't like some other great dream. 

Emma considers herself lucky. She hosted the most prestigious news and analysis show, Lateline.

She hosted business shows. She helped start shows. She was a foreign correspondent.

She considered herself fortunate to have a career in journalism.

It wasn’t like she had a burning desire to do anything else in the media, and so she felt privileged to re-imagine herself in a corporate sense, but still felt like she wanted to have some purpose. 

One thing that Emma also believes is the importance of taking care of one's mental health.

Most people who knew her could attest that she was the most optimistic person. She saw the humour in everything.

So when she had it all taken away, it was so confronting that her mental health deteriorated rapidly. 

She said, “I had tied too much of my life to my work, and if there's one thing I would love people to take stock of, that is to make time for yourself, be nice to yourself, and do nice things for yourself.” 

Emma On Having A Mentor

The first person that Emma considers to be her mentor is her dad.

Her dad was the eternal optimist, and he knew how to be content with what he had. His cup was always overflowing. 

He wasn't a man of great means. But he was so happy with his family, and he just knew how to make the people around him feel happy.

Sadly, he died way too young, at 58. By that time, Emma was only starting the Herald Sun newspaper.

One of the lessons he taught her was to be happy and grateful for what you've got. Don't always look for something else.

Emma grew up in a Catholic family that was very much about being grateful.

It's always easier said than done, but she believes that's important. 

Another person that Emma considered his mentor was Peter Meakin, the news director at Channel 9. For her, he was an extraordinary leader. 

He taught her to treat everybody the same.

Peter treated everybody equally and showed respect for you, no matter who you were.

Then there’s John Bruce, who was her executive producer on Lateline.

John had been with Lateline for 25 years, but she didn’t know him before she went overseas as a foreign correspondent.

Emma shared that when you're a foreign correspondent, you're like a freelancer because you do your story, and then you park it off to the radio department, the seven o'clock news or something.

Of all the executive producers of all those shows, whether radio or TV, the next morning, without fail, you would have an email from John Bruce at Lightline saying thank you.

He would be thoughtful about his feedback about what was great.

You may have done something that wasn't great, but he never pointed that out. 

Being a perfectionist, one important lesson that Emma learned is that striving for perfection can be quite debilitating. 

The best thing for perfectionists is to have a deadline. If you don't meet the deadline, there's black air on the television.

You sometimes got to say good enough is good enough.

Giving Guidance To Others

There are some extraordinary young people in the office Emma is in now, and she’s been relaying the lessons she learned, especially with research.

According to her, some brilliant researchers are working in the firm, and she finds that a lot of her experiences have great relevance to the current role in terms of being able to research the business they’re working for and the candidates they’re putting forward. 

She has the opportunity to mentor the researchers and those in her office doing similar work to what was happening in the newsrooms she was in. 

She also recalled a story of a good mentoring with her son when she pulled their internet out so his son could print his CV.

Her son then submitted that CV and got his first part-time job at a little restaurant near their house.

Advice To The Young Professionals

Emma's single most important advice for young people starting their careers is don’t let other people's views of what you want to do, who you want to be, and what you are capable of.

The other thing is no one will ever be upset with what they did, only what they didn’t.

So seize every opportunity. Don't say no to things because they take you outside your comfort zone.

Don't take things for what they appear. Instead, question things and be a critical thinker. Don't take other people's points of view and make them yours. Create your own. 

Seek other people's opinions that challenge the way you're thinking. Actively seek people who don't agree with you because that will improve you. It's going to make you think better thoughts.

Your expectations that others have had of you are nothing short of the wonderful experience you've not only had as a journalist and where you are today, but the success you've had and being able to speak out and speak up about issues so important makes you the great Australian you are. 

Final Message and Outro

I want to thank Emma Alberici very much for taking the time to share her insights and experiences.

Thank you for listening to this episode. Please leave a five-star review and subscribe for more episodes if you enjoyed it. 

If you'd like to learn more about developing your personal brand, please visit garrybrowne.com.au to get in touch or grab a copy of Brand New Brand You. 

Making a Difference with Your Brand & Reputation

Actively managing your personal brand is critical if you want to make a significant impact in the areas of your life important to you. What you say and what you do influences how people perceive you, so take note that your personal branding will determine how successfully you’ll be able to make an impact in life.

Gina Balarin is a hugely successful and well-renowned keynote speaker and marketing expert.

She is equally passionate about speaking as she is about marketing and will use her words, experiences, and services to inspire others to see their own potential.

She has spoken at events, panel discussions, on video and much more all around the world.

She's a director of Verballistics, a specialist communication consultancy that helps software and services companies and their leaders speak right and present more effectively.

It hasn't always been an easy ride, though.

Relatively early in her career, she discovered that she doesn't see things the way most people do.

She gets frustrated when the rules are illogical and things don't make sense. So she started her own company instead.

Now she's an entrepreneur, helping marketers around the world do marketing that they're proud of.

She sits on a couple of boards, has a master's degree in management communications, is a Fellow of the CIM and the MCIM, and is a member of the PSA.

She has written a couple of books, including The Secret Army: Leadership, Marketing and the Power of People, and 200 poems to add to it.

Gina is a hugely successful TEDx speaker, having also featured on numerous television and radio program.

With 20 years of leading marketing experience, Gina is a perfect choice for all manner of speaking events.

With an ability to speak honestly with a human touch, Gina is a revered speaker, often dubbed as a B2B marketing genius who can touch on all subjects.

Mostly, she's just interested in helping people find ways to be prouder of who they are, what they do, and how they make a difference in the world.

How Gina Thinks Of Herself As A Brand

Gina lived in Africa for the first 26 years of her life. Then she moved to the UK for 13 years before coming to Australia just over three years ago. She sees herself as location agnostic because her brand isn't associated with an identity or a location. She's currently based in Queensland, possibly where she'll be for the next few years.

For Gina, the question about how your brand is associated with your location is tricky.

She thinks that if she lived in Africa and had stayed in Africa, the chances are she would have had a brand that made her identify as African.

According to her, the place where you were born greatly influences who you are.

She thinks that there is an awareness in people who've lived in different parts of the world that helps them understand that people are more than just one culture.

Gina mentions, "I guess, while one chooses to define one's own brand, to a certain extent, your brand is defined by your experiences, by where you've lived, by who you've met, by the jobs that you've had, and the friends that you've had."

Because of that, she thinks that her brand as an international speaker has only benefited from working with people on six continents over the years.

It made her realise that there are a lot of cultural variations and nuances.

When I asked Gina if she thinks of herself as a brand or just as Gina, she openly shared that this is the question she struggles with.

Value authenticity is one of her core values, but she finds it tricky to answer whether she considers herself brand Gina or just Gina.

Many speakers like to identify themselves as their brand, so they have a site named after them, so Gina has thought about registering ginabalarin.com.

Why is that? She says, "...because there's something about calling myself brand of my name that feels almost a little bit, I don't know, egotistical to me, and I struggle with that because I am me. No one but me. But by the same token, I don't want to be an aggrandised version of myself. That doesn't sit with my brand value of humility and authenticity."

Gina doesn't want to be seen as arrogant, and there's a little voice that says, "Who are you to say you're amazing?"

Over the years, she accumulated a fair amount of relevant experience, making her trust that she should share her brand with the world.

How Others Perceive Gina

When asked if she'd thought about how others perceived her, Gina shared that her background had actually been on stage ever since.

She's been performing as a dancer on stage since she was seven and had her first leading role as a ballerina at nine.

She thinks that if you've been on stage, you have an awareness that there is a persona that exists in the idealised location that is literally on the platform.

Gina also studied for a Bachelor of Arts degree, originally in drama and linguistics, so she has always been fully aware of what it's been like to be a performer.

It's an advantage for her because it means that you know how you hold and carry yourself and look on stage. But it's also a disadvantage at the same time because there's a tendency for actors and actresses to be one thing in front of a camera and another thing behind it.

That doesn't sit comfortably with her values of authenticity, but that means she's aware of the fact that brand Gina exists in everything that she does.

She also highlights the quote, "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act but a habit."

That's why Gina tried to be excellent in every interaction. It's a hard ask, but it's a good goal for her.

The Importance Of Reputation

Gina hadn't realise how important one's reputation is as an employee until she was put in an organisation where her colleague was being promoted, and she wasn't.

While they were together, her colleague received two promotions in two and a half years, while she was still sitting there wondering why she wasn't promoted when her work was of the same quality.

It made her very upset, and she demonstrated discomfort in the workplace.

At the time, she hadn't thought much about it, but later she realised that the incident could potentially damage her reputation as a loyal and diligent employee.

Subsequently, someone reached out to Gina and tried to nit-hunt her for a job. It ended up happening, but a few months after she had anticipated.

During those few months, she realised that she had to change her behaviour if she wanted to change how people saw her in the organisation.

What Gina did was she embodied the saying, "Dress for the job you want."

For those three months, she went to the office in suits, which was unheard of because it was where people would wear jeans and jumpers to work most days. It defined the persona and reputation that she wanted to build, which were professionalism, diligence, duty, and responsibility.

When she left the organisation, she did win an award and get a significant increase, which she would never have been able to dream of a couple of years before.

It required a significant prospective change, and Gina stepped into her own courage that if she wanted something, she needed to behave in a way that would show people she was worth it.

She struggled because she would work in her previous organisations and get upset. She would figure out that things were wrong and then leave because it wasn't worth being able to make a change.

The unfortunate thing for Gina is that, as a junior, you don't have that much ability to make change happen.

But now, younger people have more of a voice compared to before.

Gina thinks that if you have people who can help you identify how to use that voice, you can be more of a brand advocate for yourself right from the beginning.

How Gina’s Values & Beliefs Were Established

Gina believes that our values are formed early in life, whether we recognise them or not.

She thinks it's possible to adjust your values if you realise that the ones you have aren't serving you or the people around you.

Gina says, "I do think that the way your parents raised you, the culture you grew up in, and the society that you're a part of gives you a certain set of values that tell you this behaviour is acceptable and this behaviour is unacceptable."

She was very grateful to her parents, who raised her with values that showed great respect for others, the truth, hard work, and yourself.

However, she was required to think differently about the values of self-promotion when she moved from Africa to Europe, and specifically to the United Kingdom.

Gina is very gregarious and outgoing, but she found that the big personality she brought with her everywhere was a little bit too much for people in the UK. They found her overwhelming. That's why she consciously had to change her behaviour so that she wasn't quite as forceful in her personality.

It also made her reflect on how much she was talking and how much she was listening. That's the skill Gina is grateful she learned.

Not necessarily her value changed, but her ability to reflect on other people's perspectives.

Their value is what they bring to the world. It's a different thing from the values that we have. It made her reconsider the Gina brand, which is not about Gina.

It's actually about the people around you and how it's far more important to be someone who brings out the best in others than to be someone comfortable standing up on stage and giving an impromptu speech.

The TEDx presentation was a wonderful experience for Gina because it was simultaneously exhilarating and terrifying. As she mentions, "Having been on stage for many years, being on the TEDx stage was no different. The difference was the level of rigour, expertise, and discipline that was required."

It was the first time she recorded and watched herself giving a presentation. It was shocking for her. She figured out that you have no idea how many bad habits you have until you realise how badly you need to be brilliant.

Gina says that she was an okay speaker but not a brilliant one.

Preparing for a TEDx talk, she spent about 40 to 60 hours of rehearsal for a 17-minute speech, forcing her to consider what a great speaker is and how she could be closer to that vision of greatness.

Gina said it was not easy, but it was well worth it because she learned a lot.

She believes that every speaker should admit they're not perfect because there is always room for improvement.

Values Tested & Morality Intact

When asked if her values had been tested and if she had to make changes to keep her values and morality intact, Gina reflected not only on her values but also on why scenarios had changed.

In the past, she didn't realise that her values were being violated.

But retrospectively, as she looks back at those scenarios, she now realises it's no wonder they couldn't work together. There are circumstances where this has happened, and it's happened sadly more than once with clients she works with.

She realised that while her values of hard work, dedication, and service are key to who she is and how she brings value to the world, this perception was not reciprocated.

It's sad for Gina to figure out that one of the organisations she worked for treated their employees like disposable assets rather than something you would want as fixed full-time employees.

She says, "They would treat people poorly until they literally burned out, throw them away, and find someone else."

For her, that was a massive violation of values. It made her realise that there wasn't mutual respect and a sense of care or authenticity in the sense of who they stood for and cared for. That was a big wake-up call, and it made Gina appreciate the nature of the people she works with, but then it stopped because they were taking advantage of her, and that's not okay.

She hopes that someone will come to her and do the same thing if that happens to her.

Gina recalled an experience when she worked for an organisation, working with their clients. She was almost a part of the extended team, and it was an interesting dynamic to be part of a team and not have a team.

In the coaching world, Gina sees organisations from the outside and observes where senior marketers have their own challenges.

She's incredibly grateful to work for organisations that give their people the time and the finance to be able to say, "Go, coach and train yourself. Find someone who can help you go through this organisational challenge."

It also reveals to her what's happening behind these organisations' scenes.

For Gina, it's nice to be able to look from the outside in rather than be in an organisation where you don't have any choice over what happens to who you report to or who reports to you to a large extent.

Gina shares an experience where she once read a wonderful description that a team wrote about her.

She thought to herself, "Wow, that's a pretty accomplished person. She sounds pretty awesome."

It almost took her a minute to realise that the team was talking about her. But before that, she made friends on LinkedIn that she had never met in real life, yet they became her friends and colleagues.

People have reflected and said to her, "Oh, yes, Gina. You do this because you're always like this," or "Yes, but that's just the way you are."

For Gina, that was the unconscious reflection: "Hey, there is a brand. It's a brand I've put out there into the world."

It's a brand that, for Gina, is incredibly valuable and meaningful to get reflected on.

It's not just a persona. It's not just an identity that she's putting out there. They are more than the sum of their parts.

She thinks the lesson for others in this is that we don't just have to portray a fraction of ourselves because the world is becoming far more open to realising that humans are a full spectrum.

We have highs and lows. We have good and bad days. We have triumphs and we have disasters.

We need to treat those two impostors just the same as Rudyard Kipling would tell us.

Gina believes that if we can reflect on our entire being and show parts of ourselves, reflect on them, and improve the bits of ourselves that we don't like, our brand is not static.

We don't end up with a caricature of ourselves. Instead, we end up being able to share more of ourselves with the rest of the world.

She thinks that in these post-COVID days, people are far more open and responsive to a full person.

The Impact of Relevance

Gina says that one of the things she has enjoyed about my book is the reflection that brand is a conscious activity and that you can build a brand from any age to any age.

She finds it intriguing to think about the career spectrum from when you first start a job to when you decide to retire. You can say that you have relevance to different people across the world.

You talk about relevance in your community, relevance in your society, relevance in your country, relevance in your job or with your employers.

The challenge for Gina has always been to identify that you can only have a certain amount of relevance at any time. That requires focus, and being able to focus requires a certain amount of discipline.

It also helps her understand why other elements of her brand wouldn't have been at the fore if she were purely focused on building a community.

Gina believes it's important to acknowledge that people will see different parts of you depending on the context in which they observe you. Your brand will be somewhat different depending on who you work with.

For Gina, the element of brand relevance is that we are all multifaceted. We can pick and choose which facets of that light we want to shine on.

She thinks that to be a properly whole and holistic brand, it's important to realise that you as a brand are all of these things together and that every person you touch has the same facets of their personality.

So for Gina, we need to use the brand with an element of caution. Just because we see someone whose brand we don't like doesn't mean that their whole personality is that.

We've only seen one tiny little facet of their personality, and perhaps if we rotated them 360 degrees or even 50 degrees, we'd see them in a whole new light.

What Gina would advise for those brands that are a little bit edgy is to be kind about the way they do things, whatever it might be.

You can be edgy. You can be quirky. You can be different. You can even be bizarre if you want, but, whatever you do, be kind.

Mentoring & Being Supported

Gina recalls that at an early age, she identified with a song. That song was ‘The Greatest Love of All’ by Whitney Houston.

She mentions, "And there's a line in that, which is, ‘I never found anyone who fulfilled my need, a lonely place to be, and so I learned to depend on me.’"

Gina finds it sad that, as a kid, you don't identify with a mentor. She suspects that it's because there weren't that many wonderful female mentors as a kid born in the 80s.

We didn't have female presidents and prime ministers. We didn't have that many female CEOs.

Those in positions of power were often less kind to people than they needed to be because they had to do what they had to do to exist in a man's world.

Gina didn't find that there were mentors in an outside context, and so in a work environment, she figured there wasn't anyone who would be there for her.

In retrospect, she thinks that saying she didn't have any mentors was wrong.

One of Gina's first full-time jobs was in an organisation where she could do what Dan Pinks calls AMP, which means autonomy, mastery, and purpose.

There was a wonderful man who helped her do everything she needed.

He gave her autonomy. She had the mastery. She was able to demonstrate purpose.

Without thinking about it, that's actually a mentorship, and what subsequently happened is that Gina then expected every employer to give her autonomy, mastery, and purpose moving forward.

When she couldn't achieve those, she was frustrated because she had such high expectations.

Gina realised that if you don't have mentors, you need to ask for them and find them. You need to look for them. You need to find them.

She also discovers that she has a group of mutual mentors who tell each other what's great and, at the same time, point out where they need to improve and how to make things better.

That has been incredibly helpful moving forward.

Gina believes that the role of mentorship is incredibly important, so she has also acted as a mentor for junior marketers in the past.

It's an incredibly rewarding experience for her, and she would encourage anyone to be a mentor as well as look for a mentor.

It's because the process of reflecting on who you are and how you behave in a work context or any other context is important for your personal and professional development.

Directorship & Branding

For Gina, Verballistics, which means making your words go mental, is a lovely idea. But in a way, it's a placeholder and a company name.

She hasn't invested in the brand because she doesn't expect it to become something that dominates the world.

She thought that it was never going to be a Coca-Cola or going to be one of the big four accounting firms.

It's enough that it is identifiable as something that has to do with words and has to do with meaning.

The challenge that Gina has is that the brand "Gina" is more than the sum of Verballistics parts.

Verballistics is a marketing agency that does content and marketing strategy.

It is about the corporate existence of a company that serves b2b organisations, predominantly software as a service or services organisations.

But Gina is more than that. She is a coach, a speaker, and a writer of various things.

She is someone who can help people understand words and figure out how they need to change the way they see words, how they use words, and how they tell stories.

So Gina struggles to put all the elements of a person and a persona into a company.

She says, "It's easy enough if your company has 10,000 or 50,000 employees that you do all of these various things because you have a division for each thing. But how do you divide Gina Balarin into a series of divisions? You can't."

For Gina, she is not the kind of person who segments herself into different categories depending on what people need.

She has struggled with the idea of separating the Gina Balarin brand from the Verballistics brand.

She mentions she is yet to be able to find something that she's really comfortable with as a solution.

Final Thoughts & Conclusions

I want to express my gratitude to Gina Balarin for sharing some fabulous insights, not only from the perspective of branding but also of reputation and values.

Thank you for listening to this episode. Please leave a five-star review and subscribe for more episodes if you enjoyed it.

If you'd like to learn more about developing your personal brand, please get in touch or grab a copy of Brand New Brand You.

Helping Others Build their Brand & Reputation with Jaqui Lane

Actively managing your personal brand is critical if you want to make a significant impact in the areas of your life important to you. What you say and what you do influences how people perceive you, so take note that your personal branding will determine how successfully you’ll be able to make an impact in life.

Jaqui Lane is one of Australia's leading business historians, having researched and written books for the Commonwealth Bank, Westpac, EMCOR, Cleanaway, Woolworths, Patrick’s, Peter Lehmann Wines, and the Asia Center Foundation.

She has interviewed over 900 Australian business people, published over 400 business books, written 27 business history books, and authored over 200 articles.

Jaqui’s vision is to change the world, one book at a time. She does this by helping business people share their knowledge and insights through writing, publishing, and marketing their own quality business books.

There's nothing about the writing, editing, production, publishing, and selling of business books around the world that Jaqui doesn't know.

She understands how to take the idea of a business book and guide entrepreneurs, company directors, consultants, and professionals through the whole process of creating a business book that will increase their profile, build a long-lasting legacy, and propel their reputation and relevance.

Jaqui's passion for literacy is shared through her involvement in a number of charities, including being the founding chairman of The Footpath Library, a charity that provides books to homeless and needy people across Australia.

She is currently a role model for Book in Homes Australia, a charity established to provide new books to lower socio-economic and remote students throughout Australia.

Jaqui is originally from New Zealand and refers to herself as an Australasian. Growing up with three older brothers, she learned early, the skills needed to cut through, to be seen, and heard.

She has a master's degree in Russian Politics, is a keen hiker and scuba diver, and has just come back from the Flinders Ranges.

Defining Jaqui As A Brand

Jaqui got a lot of calls from people, whether they’re corporate or business people, saying that they’ve been told to call her because she’s the book lady.

Her usual response to that is that she’s happy to be known as the book lady rather than the bag lady, so her brand is a specialist book person.

Jaqui is typically focused on business books, but she also often helps people who are writing their biographies. Overall, she’s just very passionate about books.

Her brand would be somebody who is knowledgeable, caring, trustworthy, energetic, engaging, great at execution, who stands up, and who has great insights.

Helping Others Build Their Brand

Jaqui is currently working on a couple of histories at the moment, and the very big questions that she always asks her clients in the early stages are, "What are your key messages and values? What would you like the reader to take out of this?"

For CommBank, she thinks a really powerful longevity part of their brand was that they're a bank for all Australians

Their heritage goes back to 1912. After the Federation, they were the savings bank that most people joined, because traditionally, trading banks weren't allowed in savings banking.

They were the bank for migrants. A lot of new Australians back in the 50s became Commonwealth Bank customers.

So she thinks they have a long and proud legacy of being a bank for everybody, and that comes out very strongly.

Jaqui thinks over generations, perhaps that's been forgotten, as it naturally sometimes does unless you're actually constantly communicating that story.

She mentioned a great video she once watched that said you can't just tell the story once and think everybody's got it. You have to keep telling it and reminding people of it, and just when you get to the point where you're sick of talking about it, it is probably the time you need to keep talking about it even more.

The relevance piece is also underpinned by the values, according to Jaqui. So if a value for your bank is supporting all Australians, that’s a strong and enduring value.

But unless you're aware of it and the organisation is constantly referring to it and articulating it, it could get lost.

How Others Perceive Jaqui

Jaqui believes that people perceive her as direct, honest, trustworthy, knowledgeable, a little cheeky, enjoys a good laugh, and is more interested in her cat than in herself.

She also thinks other people perceive her as someone who’s very considerate and who has great curiosity and intellectual interest.

Her subset of skills around how to publish a book is kind of a given, and it’s really more about the intellectual capacity that she can bring to a discussion.

Jaqui is currently working with people on a book on AI and ethics, data analytics, how to run a psychiatry practice, the caring economy, empathic leadership, and others. They’re a very broad range of topics, and she’s fascinated by all of them.

Given that Jaqui’s mission is to change the world for the better, one book at a time, she believes you can only really effectively do that if you’re at the forefront of the issues in the world you are facing.

She thoroughly enjoys the process of understanding what they are as she works with some amazing people who are leaders in those fields. It keeps her unbelievably up to speed and relevant.

The Importance Of Reputation

In New Zealand, when Jaqui was doing her master’s degree in Russian Politics, she had a part-time job, and that was helping to research a book on the history of the New Zealand National Party, which is the equivalent of the liberal party here in Australia.

She got to interview and meet a lot of New Zealand's politicians and political leaders at quite a young age, and then she ended up working for the National Party for three or four years.

So she learned very early in politics that your reputation is mission-critical and, in the number of the people that she met and then worked with, just being in that environment makes you extraordinarily aware of the fact that you are public property in a lot of sense.

You can't just do what you want, when you want, and that was way before social media even.

From a very early age, she understood the power of presence and the importance of being able to clearly articulate to a wide audience what you needed to communicate.

Jaqui is very careful about who she works with and she’s also careful not to judge. She would make her own assessment based on her own values and what she genuinely believes she can bring to the project.

If she doesn’t think it’s right for her, she would say so very politely. In fact, she had turned down both corporate work and other projects based on that.

Jaqui says, "I think that's an important part of that reputation and relevance thing is that you need to be very clear about where you want to play because you can't spread yourself too thinly."

She has recently begun researching the concept of reputation economy: everyone has a reputation, and it is now digital and online, and it exists whether you actively manage it or not.

It’s really very important for people, particularly business people, but really anybody to be actively engaged in actually doing a Google search on themselves regularly to understand what their digital reputation is because it's out there and it might not be what you think it is.

Establishing Jaqui’s Values & Beliefs

Like most people, Jaqui’s foundational values also came from her parents, but she really didn’t think about her values at all until she had her son.

She thought now that she’s got the responsibility to grow a human being, she really spent a bit of time thinking what the values that she wanted to instill in him were. What were the ones that weren’t serving Jaqui anymore or might not serve her son?

That was the first time she really actively thought about what her values are and she noticed that some of them are different from her parents.

Then, she didn’t think too much about it again until we worked together on my book.

One chapter that really impacted her was chapter 2 of the book, where I talk a lot about values.

She actually went through the exercise that I suggested in the book about writing down what you think your values are and ordering and reassessing them. Some she moved on, and some she doubled down.

She says, "I think the act of actually consciously looking at what your values are is probably something most people don't do enough." 

Jaqui believes that her beliefs have shifted over time. She came from a very conservative local small town in New Zealand, and she didn’t really have much exposure to anybody that wasn’t like her.

She then ended up in Sydney, Australia and through learning, business, and interactions, she had to reassess a number of her beliefs.

She does a lot of work in the Middle East and she’s passionately interested in ancient Persian culture, so exploring other cultures deeply has required her to review and assess what some of her beliefs were. Some she holds firm to, and some have morphed over time.

Jaqui just read an article about the decline of Western liberalism, and for a very long time, she's been aware that Western liberal values are not the globe’s values.

There’s a whole range of different values and belief systems and she thinks that it’s really arrogant for us to think that there’s only one set that should apply to the world.

Jaqui believes that we would all do ourselves a great service in the community to be much more open to different beliefs and value systems.

She also believes that if you understand more about different cultures and systems, you will appreciate it way better someone else's perspective and also your own.

Tested Values & Beliefs

In business, Jaqui had to make some major decisions that impacted the revenue and profitability of her company.

She’s had to walk away from potential projects because the value system or the behaviour of the potential client were something that she couldn’t work with.

Jaqui always wanted to be able to walk with her head held high, so if anything didn’t feel right, she has regularly made decisions that have impacted her business because, for her, it was the right thing to do.

Separating Business Brand and Personal Brand

At the very top level, Jaqui’s business is not her name. She has a business called The Book Adviser and another business called Global Stories.

That said, those brands are out there, but most people would attach those brands to her personally.

So Jaqui’s about to make some changes in her business, so she’s not necessarily the key point person for that.

She hasn’t separated the two very successfully yet, but it was a very conscious decision she made when she established those brands.

In fact, she has two that are quite separate brands, and they perform different things, and, of course, her engagement with them is quite different.

Jaqui struggled initially to decide whether she’d have one brand or two. Completely different markets completely require different levels of knowledge and support.

So she thinks very clearly about what the potential client would want to see. How would they interact with that? What are they looking at as opposed to what does she want to sell?

It’s stepping out of her and looking at it from the potential client’s point of view.

So if you want a corporate history written, that’s Global Stories. If you want to develop a business book for yourself, that’s The Book Adviser.

It may be that her team absorbs them into one brand, but at the moment, they want to keep them a little bit separate to see how they go.

Having A Mentor

Jaqui feels very fortunate that people chose to mentor her, so she didn’t have to go out and see them.

When she was involved in politics, the head of the National Party identified her and brought her under their wing, which was great.

When she came to Australia, she formed a business with her business partner, who’s a very successful businessman.

He identified her when she was doing an interview with him for a book. He asked Jaqui at the interview if she’d be doing anything next.

She then replied that she’s not yet sure, but she has this idea to start a business. He then said he’d be happy to talk to Jaqui.

So she’s never actively sought a mentor, and she feels very fortunate that others saw something in her and offered their guidance.

But Jaqui highly recommends that people in the early stages or whatever stage they are in their career go find a mentor or somebody to give them independent, thoughtful support.

She says, "It's very hard to get out of your own way sometimes, and I think having somebody who's not a family member, who's not kind of emotionally connected with you in some way, is really valuable in terms of looking at what your strengths and weaknesses are, helping you identify what they are, having that discussion around values, and also helping you to identify what your goals are in life and then maybe how you might go and achieve them." 

Jaqui also had clients who ended up being her mentors, and that’s actually a great part of what she does.

She gets to meet amazingly interesting people, and some become great friends, informal mentors, or people you develop a closer relationship.

She’s also on the stage, where she now mentors some people as a way of giving back.

The Most Prominent Brand Jaqui Has Worked With

Jaqui mentioned that our working together taught her a lot about the whole branding space.

She’s in it but she’s never had the time to look into it more deeply and effectively, but that’s what she’s helping a lot of her clients do.

She mentioned that CommBank’s history was fascinating. Aside from interviewing all the senior management and board directors, she also interviewed Bob Hawke and Paul Keating, and all the living reserve bank governors. Jaqui would love that project to just go on forever, meeting an array of really important individuals who have had a significant impact over time on all Australians.

She didn’t really know much about the banking and financial system when she started that project, and now she’s probably got 100 odd books on it, which go back to the beginning of Fibonacci and accounting.

She got interested in the ancient history of banking and finance. She went off on quite a few tangents and has an enduring interest in them now.

So, as a project, that one would be a standout for her just because the company and those individuals have and continue to have such an impact on the health of the economy and the wellbeing of our country.

Final Thoughts and Conclusions

I was hoping Jaqui would actually mention that because I think that the financial system is a cultural shaper of the country, and it's been through an interesting journey over the last hundred years, and anything that a financial institution actually does not only impacts people's lifestyles and impacts the economy, but also impacts their mindset, or the way in which they want to live, work, and grow.

I don't think people actually recognise that, and that's why a history like that is critically important.

Obviously, it must have been a real privilege to actually be part of putting that together. It's a great recognition of Jaqui’s talent and expertise that we all know so well, and I’m very grateful for what she's been able to share with us today.

How to Build Your Personal Brand and Reputation | on the HR Think Tank Podcast

Earlier this month I sat down with Khai Ngo, CEO of VerifyNow on The HR Think Tank podcast and we discussed personal brand and reputation which is all in my book Brand New Brand You. Take a listen.

https://youtu.be/b7WuLexBI3A HR Think Tank Podcast

Brand Audit

7 tips on how to do a brand audit. Where you’re at with all aspects of your brand over the year and thinking about the year ahead. Standing out from the crowd. The dynamic of managing Brand you.

Tom Peters said, “All of us need to understand the importance of branding. We are CEO's of our own companies. Me incorporated. To be in business today, our most important job is to be head marketer for the brand called you.” 

Once you’ve created a personal brand, an audit is very important. 

What Is a Personal Brand?

A personal brand describes how individuals differentiate themselves and stand out from the crowd. 

By identifying and articulating their unique value proposition, whether they're a professional or whether it's their personal brand, they then leverage it across platforms with a consistent message and image to achieve a particular goal. 

Jeff Bezos says, “Your brand is what people say about you when you're out of the room.” 

A successful brand you has to be: 

• Unique

• Credible

• Consistent

• Relevant

Doing a Personal Brand Audit

Be prepared to think introspectively. Both internally and externally, and you may need to check in with colleagues, friends and family to test whether your self-assessment is accurate. 

You need to know yourself. What are your primary values and your secondary values? You must consistently live by your values across all facets of your life. 

1.    What is your purpose? Create your personal brand statement. 

2.    What is your area of expertise and your superpower? When considering your internal perceptions, you will want to ask yourself the following questions:

·      How do I want to be perceived? 

·      What do I want others to remember about me?

·      What are my strengths? 

3.    You need to know your audience. 

4.    You need to become the leader in your field. To make an impact in your field, you need to undertake a SWOT analysis. You should assess your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. 

5.    Take control of your image. As noted earlier, your personal brand exists in the minds of your audience and how they perceive you. First, create brand you guidelines for your photography, websites, your platform, and everything you want to do to protect yourself, whether it be in the social media industry, business, or LinkedIn. All of these are critical. Next, curate your website and workplace. 

6.    Engage and connect with empathy. Create a content marketing plan that you can execute. Engage genuinely on social media platforms you select. As a business owner, engage your past, current, and future clients and customers. 

7.    Build your community. Developing, building, and maintaining a brand requires a team of people. You need to work to build that network of people who are ready and willing to support you and spread your message. 

The Next Step

You need to understand your community: how are they relevant to you and you to them? 

You may already have these kinds of people around you. Consider who they may be: mentors, team members, clients, past and present fans, advocates, coaches, and role models. 

And who are you? Who do you provide support to in any of these capacities? 

Once you've answered these questions, prioritise those who would like to connect with you. 

Key Takeaways

Warren Buffett said, “We can afford to lose money, even a lot of money, but we can't afford to lose reputation—even a shred of reputation.”

Doing a personal brand audit will ensure that you remain true to your values and not deviate from your purpose.

Ensure that you’re in control of the image being put into the world, as that will influence people’s perception of you and, eventually, your reputation.

Inspiring the Younger Generation to Build Their Brand

Actively managing your personal brand is critical if you want to make a significant impact in the areas of your life important to you. What you say and what you do influences how people perceive you, so take note that your personal branding will determine how successfully you’ll be able to make an impact in life.

In January 2022, Professor Attila Brungs was appointed as University of New South Wales Sydney's incoming President and Vice-Chancellor. Attila Brungs was the former Vice-Chancellor and President of the University of Technology Sydney. He was appointed to the role in July 2014. Attila has been a researcher in both industry and academia with interests in the area of heterogeneous catalysts. 

Attila is an elected Fellow of the Royal Society of New South Wales and an elected Fellow of the Australian Academy of Technology and Engineering. As Vice-Chancellor of UTS, he was instrumental in the university's rise to Australia's position among the world's top young universities, including supporting the transformation of the UTS campus with the addition of the Dr Chau Chak Wing Building designed by Frank Gehry, the Faculty of Engineering and Information Technology Building, the Vicky Sara building, and the UTS central building through a $1.5 billion campus master plan. 

Central to Brung’s approach at UTS has been collaboration, engaging with industry to tackle real-world research problems, and the community to tackle social justice issues. Under his stewardship, the university's commitment to delivering positive social good has been strengthened through the creation of UTS' social impact framework. Professor Attila Brungs is a senior leader in the higher education industry and a passionate advocate for innovation. 

He believes the universities not only have a responsibility to prepare students for the jobs of the future but also to help create jobs for them to go to. Attila grew up in Sydney and is married to artist Kate Gradwell and shares two children together. He is a member of the Sydney Sabre and UTS Fencing Club.   

Attila Brungs As A Brand

As a scientist, Attila doesn’t necessarily identify with the word brand. But based on conversations we’ve had before, how I define a brand and how Attila defines reputation, character, and authenticity are the same which is a much richer, fuller, more authentic and coherent understanding of self. 

So for Attila, his reputation as a scientist is incredibly important. Many things happened in his life. He’s got a broad range of interests. Things happen to him and he can’t control external circumstances.

“But what I can control is how I react to the world around me,” he says. “I can control what my aspirations are and I can control how I try and achieve my goals. And as we see, a lot of these are, “How can I make society a better place?”

There are so many things, particularly about the last two years that are entirely out of his control and as he becomes older and wiser he hopes he can have more wisdom.

Attila read a book once that says wisdom is knowing those things which you can change, and those which you can't change and the ability to tell the difference between them. 

Back to the conversation of reputation, scientists question the universe, they use evidence, they solve problems, and then they publish. 

They try and bring that knowledge to change and improve society. Now, unless they're trusted, unless they have a reputation, that becomes incredibly hard to do. That’s why he believes that reputation, authenticity, and character are very important.

According to Attila, perception is very important too. When you think about your reputation, when you think about your character, for Attila, perception becomes fact. 

As a scientist, he knows that there are facts and there are perceptions. But for him, to underestimate how other people view the world and what their perceptions are and to write them off by saying, “I know that this is X, the person may perceive it to be Y but it’s actually X,” is unhelpful because through their lens and their life experiences, they think it is something else and that's what their perception is. 

One of the most important things that Attila has found, particularly in leadership is how he makes sure that he’s trying to understand people's different backgrounds, their different characters and perceptions because that is critical in being able to connect and engage and communicate with people.

As we have seen in society recently, there’s a lot of debate around vaccines. According to Attila, saying to people they’re an idiot if they have problems with vaccines, because they may read on social media that a vaccine is a ‘Microsoft chip to control your brain’, is one of the worst things you can do. 

“Their perception is different to yours,” Attila says. “What we need to do is understand where they’re coming from, understand their perception, and understand the drivers and environments that help them get to their perception and then engage with it.”

As it relates to reputation, not only do you have to be mindful of being authentic and coherent in all your actions because, for Attila, the best way to manage your brand or your reputation is to be who you are, to be authentic, and to be coherent about that.

Attila then brought up one of my favourite quotes from Jeff Bezos, “Your brand is what other people say about you when you’re not in the room.”

So for Attila, if you’re very coherent in your actions and it’s truly authentic, that’s how you influence people. It’s not just as simple as that though because as an example, he may act one way towards me and he may act exactly the same way towards his children. But his children and I have different worldviews, and so both of us will view his actions in a different way. 

Therefore, what he’s got to do, is work out if this action got this desired outcome, or he’s showing this part of his character which is authentic to him, he’s got to think of the best way of showing that to me. Similarly, when he showed it to his kids, it’s the same point but he may show it differently.

According to Attila, “Your words, your actions, and your values need to be perfectly aligned. But it’s not just as simple as making sure they’re aligned. If you want people to perceive all of their coherence, you’ve got to go to the next level of sophistication.”

As an example earlier, given that I and his kids are coming from different worldviews, if he acts this way towards me or acts this way toward his kids, do we both view what he’s trying to communicate? Maybe not, so he may have to do something subtly different but still authentic with him, his values, and his coherence so he can still connect with me or his kids in a slightly different way. 

Building Reputation

Attila has spent many years around students and young people aspiring to great careers and being ambitious. These students start off wanting to develop a career. 

They haven't got much of a reputation, they've actually got to build their brand first. So reputation is actually an outcome of them taking the steps to get there and Attila concurs with that.

Sometimes, parents get grumpy at Attila Brungs as the vice Chancellor. They say, “What should little Jane or Johnny do? Should they go with accounting or engineering because there’s a lot of jobs in that?” 

Well, what Attila asks them is, “What does Jane or Johnny passionate about? What do they really love doing? What can they throw their whole self into?” These questions should be the basis of some of the choices.

If someone comes to Attila and said they want to be an astronaut and they’re passionate about being an astronaut, he provides them advice that there aren’t many astronauts, particularly in Australia, so if someone wants to pursue it, they’ve got to be quite sophisticated as they go.

Attila thinks that one of the most important things is what you’re passionate about because that then carries from the job to different organisations you work for.

If we look at Attila’s career, there are certain values and aspirations that he has that he tries and uses his talents to help society that no matter where he goes, those are there.

How Others Perceive Attila

Particularly in Attila’s last couple of roles, as a leader, for him, one of the responsibilities of leadership (there are two) is to make sure you walk your talk.

So if he says this is important for UNSW, CSIRO, or for UTS and if he doesn’t live to those values and doesn’t project those things that are important for the organisation and important for the organisation to do to society, then they will immediately see a perceived coherence gap.

That doesn’t necessarily mean personally that he has to be exactly aligned with the exact same set of values of all the organisations he belongs to.

Say, for example, not all aspects of the character of UNSW are aspects necessarily in Attila’s character. He’s very aligned with UNSW’s values and a lot of them speak to his personal values that’s why he joined UNSW. 

It’s a similar journey with UTS because it thrives for a social purpose like UNSW and it’s something that speaks to him as well.

But as a leader, there are times when you need to think through this audience at this time and these issues facing us and ask yourself, “What part of my character do I need to maybe bring to the fore? What’s something that I need to focus on?”

Attila doesn’t necessarily manage his reputation or brand but what he does manage as a leader is what are the things in his character are important and when should they come to the fore.

The Importance of Reputation

What Attila recognises is how critical reputation is to the success that he wanted to have.

There are times that it’s safe to hide parts of your character, to fit in with the flow, or do things differently. 

Attila is a pragmatic person and he thinks sometimes, you have to compromise but there are things about yourself and your character that you got to be cohesive from one room to the next.

He considers himself fortunate because his father is also an academic, and his father had a reputation for being scrupulously honest, caring, and a good problem solver.

Attila observed how that reputation of being honest, caring, and a great problem solver assisted him in getting done what he needed to get done and how important that was. He then realised the importance of integrity in any role, specifically as a leader. 

His mother has also a reputation. Attila is the oldest of seven kids, so his mum had quite a challenge in raising and looking after them giving them all they needed. His values stemmed from his parents, his family, and his broader family and he’s grateful for that. 

His mother, he observed, would be herself in whatever company. She’s quite outgoing, she’s incredibly caring, and she could engage with people brilliantly. Just by being herself, she would disarm people and she could connect with people. She’s got that reputation for her authenticity and her integrity.

How Attila Established His Values

Attila is the eldest, but he has learned incredible lessons from his siblings and he continues to learn and get inspired by them throughout his life even when they were very young.

He remembered when his sister was only four, she taught Attila a really important lesson about life just because of how wonderful she was.

Attila’s values were formed early on and haven’t changed but his worldview has changed somewhat. How his values manifest themselves, and how they connect have somewhat changed.

He came from a particular cultural background (his mum is Hungarian) and he went to UNSW and he met people from so many different backgrounds and worldviews. 

He thinks that the way he views the world fundamentally shifted during his time at university. When he went to Oxford for a while he then again, met people from all around the world with different real world views, different perspectives, and different lived experiences. 

It gave Attila early on insight into how powerful true diversity of thought can be and the importance to have inclusive leadership which is making sure that everybody contributes to that diversity. 

Shifting Values

As Attila has gotten older, his tolerance increased. As a young man, he mentioned that he was intolerant, excited, and passionate.

Being passionate is a wonderful thing but sometimes passion can breed a little bit of stubbornness about what you want to do.

According to Attila, “I can’t necessarily say that my values have shifted, but we can see how values are manifested in behaviours. If you look at the underpinning value of respect, how we show each other today that we’re respectful, is perhaps quite different to 30 years ago.”

That's why coherence and authenticity are so important. For example, Attila can behave to me in a way that appears to be respectful. But if he goes around the corner and then relies on my character or acts to my disadvantage, he’s not being respectful in the slightest.

What really is the intent of people in terms of what they see as respect or lack of respect is becoming far more prominent in many of the social issues today.

What Attila thinks is wonderful in today’s society and in our universities, is the importance placed on how others regard your actions.

Let’s go back to what he said at the beginning that you got to know your character. How he acts with me, versus how he acts with his kids may be slightly different because he’s trying to make sure that we recognise that respect. 

Lost and Tested Values

Attila’s values have been tested a lot of times in both his career and home life. He has aspirations of trying his hardest. He said, “We do things that we regret throughout our lives. We wish we had done differently.” 

As a leader, he’s trying to be authentic. He would never say anything behind people’s backs. He will try to be open and transparent and make sure that his words, actions, and deeds are coherent.

According to Attila, “I believe that actions are so much more important than words. Unless you act in coherence with your values, it doesn’t matter what you say.”

In some respect, words are also important at times. But one of the things that he does particularly as a leader is that it’s very important to spark a wonderful team and to trust and give them autonomy.

But if something goes wrong, he’ll talk about it with them. But that’s on Attila and not them.

He remembered at one time in one of the divisions of CSIRO, it happened that something did go wrong with one team member, so Attila went back and fixed it.

Attila built this deep relationship with this division and they trusted him and that things were going well.

It would have been easy for him if he said “It’s just X. He’s new. Sorry about that. Let’s go on.” And that probably would have been fine and X wouldn’t have gotten in trouble and their relationship could have been stable.

But Attila took the responsibility and said, “I stuffed up and I did wrong.” That damaged his reputation in that division because he had a reputation for delivery, and he had failed to deliver. It took him a good six months to rebuild his reputation.

But Attila still thinks that even in hindsight or even on the surface he lost his reputation, what he did was still true to what he believes is important. 

So rather than acting in a different way to try and preserve his reputation in some respects, it was better to lose his reputation in that regard, because he remained coherent with what he believed his broader character is about.

Keeping the Brand Whole

Attila considers himself in a fortunate position in that he has certain aspirations around what he wants to do with his time and talents, and that he gets a choice of where he works.

So the choice he makes is to make sure that the organisation he works for has a core of very aligned values to what he thinks is important. Universities as a whole share a set of values as public institutions.

UTS is a university of a public institution that exists for social good and he said the same thing at UNSW, because he passionately believes it as well.

What attracted him to UNSW is similar to UTS. They have this passion for social impact. They put three pillars in their strategy which are excellence, research, and social impact. 

Attila said, “I'll only work in an organisation where there’s a very strong set of values but what’s different however is the way the two institutions are going around to deliver their missions which is great because then they’re complementary.” 

Next, what is important to the institution at that time? If we look at UNSW for example, there are aspects of what Attila thinks is important that he didn’t need to focus on at UTS, but he’s now focusing on UNSW because they regarded it more important than UTS did. 

So for him, it’s not about different values or even repositioning himself. It’s about if core values are very similar. It’s about which parts of the UNSW strategy they want to achieve. Does Attila need to provide support? Does he need to promote? Does he need to push?

Therefore, people will perceive him slightly differently from the Vice-Chancellor of UNSW to the Vice-Chancellor of UTS. He’s hoping that people will always perceive him as Attila regardless of where he goes but because he has a different set of priorities at UNSW than he did at UTS, naturally, people will look at him differently. 

How People See Attila Outside of His Profession

According to Attila, "Again, that goes back to our very first part of our why it's important just to be authentic, I have a broad set of interests, you have a broad set of interests, and parts of your character come out in different circumstances."

For example, when Attila is fencing, no one would see him as a professor or vice-chancellor. 18-20 years old who are so much fitter and more agile than him, crush him. They view Attila as a slightly old man who they like beating in fencing. So that’s one particular view of him.

He’s got another view of when he was a surf lifesaver. People viewed him as someone on the beach. His family also views him in a very different way. 

Even in the university, some parts of UTS knew him for years when he started more as a scientist on the research side, hence they viewed him as a fellow researcher.

Other parts would view him as vice-chancellor, and other parts view him as a friend.

Attila said, "So that's where the complexity of reputation - and it goes back to what we said right at the beginning, is it's not just about you being authentic, it's about how people are also viewing you and people will do to their own worldview, see different aspects of you, as authentic as it is that resonates with them.

People from UTS perceive Attila as a leader in the educational field and he’s hoping that people will similarly view him that way at UNSW. 

He wants to be viewed as their cheerleader for the wonderful staff, a colleague who will support to do their aspirations, and their champion outside the organisation because the vice chancellor’s role is very important because one of his roles is to talk to the government, talk to business, and be a real champion of the university's aspirations.’

Attila’s Mentors

Attila is very grateful that he has his parents, siblings, supervisors, teams, and people he met at work that have been his mentors.

He doesn’t deliberately mention any names, because he’s come to recognise how much he can learn from everybody around him.

He recognised how fortunate he is to always be in these rich and dynamic environments where there are lots of people around. And as long as he keeps his mind and heart open, he can learn from everybody around him regardless of what their role is.

The Value of Mentoring

Attila believes that having a mentor is so important. He encourages people to have mentors because mentors are super helpful but he doesn’t only do that. He also said, "To be generous to others, because if you're generous with your time, it's amazing what people can be back to you."

Attila has seen people be very mercenary about finding mentors and networking yet the people that he found the most successful are those who are generous. Because if you're generous to others and you build communities, you can draw on that community that can put you in a great position of resilience and strength.

Final Message and Outro

I want to thank Attila Brungs very much for taking the time to really share his wisdom and insights. 

Thank you for listening to this episode. Please leave a five-star review and subscribe for more episodes if you enjoyed it. 
If you'd like to learn more about developing your personal brand, please visit garrybrowne.com.au to get in touch or grab a copy of Brand New Brand You.

Maintaining Your Reputation and Integrity

Actively managing your personal brand is critical if you want to make a significant impact in the areas of your life important to you. What you say and what you do influences how people perceive you, so take note that your personal branding will determine how successfully you’ll be able to make an impact in life.

Welcome to the fifth episode of The Personal Brand Catalyst. Today we are joined by Tony Nash who started his first internet business in 1996. In 2004, Tony founded Booktopia, an online bookstore with an allocated budget of $10 a day.

The company's first book sold in three days. Fast track 17 years and Booktopia now sells one book every 3.9 seconds, with an annual turnover of over $220 million a year. 

It was listed in the AFR BRW Fast 100, eight times, the only company to achieve this feat and was voted book retailer of the year for the third time in 2019 at the Australian Books Industry Awards. 

One of the defining aspects of the business is its philanthropic program. So far, Booktopia has donated well over a million dollars in books and cash to literacy-based projects in Australia, including indigenous literacy, writers' festivals, readers' conferences, library fundraising projects, and book industry awards. 

In 2020, Booktopia was listed on the Australian Stock Exchange with a market capitalisation of 315 million. 

Tony is an entrepreneur, founder and CEO in online retail with a background in recruitment, programming, business development, selling, SEO, and internet marketing

Tony has developed outstanding negotiation and leadership skills with a thorough understanding of sales and managing an outstanding executive team; has involved himself in capital raising, and listing now on the Australian Stock Exchange.

Self Identity As A Brand 

Tony considered “Tony Nash” as his brand and not Booktopia because same with any CEO or founder, he wants his business to have longevity beyond him.

It’s a role that when he steps down or resigns, Booktopia would continue to go on and therefore, he’s leaving it in trusted hands. That thinking is super helpful for him in terms of its growth over the years. 

Perception of Others

For Tony, others might perceive him as a success story because he’s done something that very few have done despite books being written off, bookshops closing, and Amazon’s going to annihilate you.

But it’s not just him or Booktopia employees or now shareholders, but also publishers, authors, and customers who participated in that success. 

The most appealing and exciting part of the whole Booktopia journey for Tony is that there’s very little expectation of what they were going to get to where they are today. It’s basically like achieving the impossible.

How Business Affected Tony's Reputation 

According to Tony, his career with Booktopia is like being an athlete or being on the field where people yell at you, yell at the referee, or yell at the competition. “Everything is just noise, so there’s an aspect of understanding what your purpose is and where you’re heading.”

He can only imagine playing the State of Origin, with so much crowd involvement even beyond those that are at the ground, to have the eyes of the eastern seaboard of Australia watching a specific game and then to be impacted by what people are saying and what social media are saying these days more than ever before. Those things didn’t ruffle Tony.

When asked about the speedbumps he encountered over the years, Tony mentioned that he’s getting speed bumps all the time even right now. In 2022, Booktopia’s share price has gone from just under $3 to $1.30, that’s a massive drop even lower than before.

The way Tony looked at it is, that everyone’s on the slide at the moment, so it’s not specifically about Booktopia. Ecommerce businesses are being repriced at the moment so he doesn’t feel like it’s a reflection on him or the business so his advice is that you need to be resilient and you got to be able to separate yourself from the speedbumps you encounter.

Building Credibility and Reputation in The Early Years

When Tony was around 30 years old, he had been approached by a financial planner to invest in an Australian film scheme that enabled them to invest as he films and then get a tax break. The tax break was really beneficial to do and you could borrow money to pay for it. Tony thought it was a good idea, so he got involved.

Then seven years later, the Australian Tax Office decided to stop that and retrospectively go back seven years and nullify all of the schemes. So in the end, Tony had worked out that he owed the Australian Tax Office $250,000.

At that time, he had sold his house and put all the money into his company and since the scheme was a personal and not a business thing, Tony found himself with a fair amount of debt. 

He was trying to pay it off but he got to a point in the early 2000s where he decided to just go bankrupt. He’s heard enough times that if you’re an entrepreneur, you’re going to go bankrupt at least once in your life and Tony saw that as liberating not because he no longer had to pay the Australian Tax Office $250,000. 

Personally, Tony didn’t think of himself as a failure or that he was going to have to hide his experience in the closet. 

He has many instances where he could think he’s hopeless or worthless because he got so many reference points to think that he’s worth nothing, but that’s not how he went about his daily work. 

Keeping The Reputation

Tony always felt that destiny was in his own hands. Only five years ago, his son was diagnosed with ADHD and he went on medication. His life transformed at school and socially with his friends, particularly with teachers that he was working with on a daily basis.

His wife was pretty sure Tony had it as well, so he went to an adult psychiatrist and they spoke about all the things that he’s accomplished in sport and Booktopia. A week later, the psychiatrist also had a conversation with his wife and then after that, it was confirmed that he definitely has ADHD.

When he got that insight about how he operated in the world, he has to consider that when asked about everything he went through because he was undiagnosed, so there were certain aspects to mental health and certain conditions, but Tony sees ADHD as a superpower.

ADHD serves him because when he finds something that he’s really passionate about, he just locks in and that’s something that he wants to do. It’s one of the reasons why Booktopia actually has been successful in the early years.

So to him, it's a superpower not that he knew that he had it then, but there was always this thing about him that he believes he’s going to rise out of the ashes like a phoenix. For him, it was always this sense of hope and possibility.

When Tony thinks about his son and perhaps others, the hallmark of ADHD is that you have this element that you’re not good enough. But when it came to accomplishing things or succeeding, you think that it was always like a quest to show the rest of the world that you’re not useless or unworthy.

Identifying And Establishing Tony’s Values

Tony thinks that a lot of our values are inherited from our parents and learned from our environment mostly through demonstrating and not necessarily through birth and pre-birth. So there’s the element of unpacking that over the years and understanding if it’s really serving you or if you want to be that person.

He remembered one time when he was quite young, he was the coach of a basketball team and a lot of people were watching. Tony’s mum and dad came along to watch the tournament and he just lost it with the kids. They were just not listening to what he was saying. 

Later on, when no one else was around, Tony’s mum said something like, “I’ve never been embarrassed all my life.” Taking that moment, he reflected on how he showed up in the world, if that’s the kind of person he wants to be, and if that’s how he wants to operate.

In his early 20s, Tony did something that not everyone does and that was he wrote a lot in his journals to try to understand things, do a lot of reflections, and do soul-searching.

How Tony Understands And Sees His Values And Principles

Tony remembered when he was about 14 or 15, he told his mom he was going to be famous and his mum said she couldn’t think of anything worse. It’s quite an odd thing for him to hear, given that he had an ambition at that young age.

He remembered, ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’ by Dale Carnegie, was a book that he read all the way through oddly enough back then. He had worked in sales, worked in a HIFI shop, and sold computers but he wasn’t doing a very good job on those works. He ended up in recruitment and he did really well. He enjoyed selling and listening to people like Tom Hopkins and Anthony Robbins. 

What he did end up doing was travelling around the world for three and a half years and living in London. He was working in a recruitment company and he was just walking through a corridor when he picked up on a conversation between two people about a course called the Landmark Forum.

Tony ended up going on that and doing that for over two weekends, and it really blew his mind in terms of the way that he operated in the world.

He did lots of different workshops and worked on himself over the years. He enjoyed challenging himself by looking at his values, his beliefs, and the way that he operated and then taking what he learned in all those workshops out into the world.

Tony’s Tested Values

Tony shared one scenario where his values were tested and it’s a good one for him that it wasn’t in the work environment. But when it was thrown at him, it really made a huge difference in his life.

So he was doing a workshop years ago and there was a process that they were doing that you had to get into teams. 

Tony was really motivated and he was willing to give his 100% like he always does. When their team got five, one of the guys in the group said to him that he didn’t want Tony to be on the team and he thanked the guy for his honesty.

There was a part of the process where you had to understand and demonstrate the word ‘integrity’. Tony put up his hand when they got to that part and asked for a dictionary to read the definition of integrity because he didn’t understand what the word meant.

When he went back two months later to participate in the group that was now like the graduate of the course, the guy that said he didn't want Tony on the team, was on his current team.

Tony asked the guys in a nice way why he said he didn’t want Tony on the team prior and the guy answered because he didn’t think Tony had any integrity. Tony agreed with him because he had no idea what it was before.

So, after that, he went out and started to try and find people that had integrity. He saw videos of Martin Luther King and others who may have had it. Lo and behold, a few years later, people spontaneously said that they love Tony’s integrity. That was a value that he had no idea about, but he was able to pursue it and own it.

For Tony, it’s your choice whether you want to have integrity, whether you want to have trust, or whether you want to carry whatever it is that you have. Therefore, there are so many values that he has today that he definitely did not have all those years ago.

I think one of the big challenges of younger people today is not understanding what their values are. I talk very much about trying to get young people to document and write down what their values are because it will stand them in good stead for the future.

I would have a guess that there would be a small percentage in the population that would do what Tony has done which is to understand what integrity is because I'm not sure people can actually go and identify it. 

So specifically, as Tony has articulated, which I think makes him quite unique in that regard because to go out and try and identify what integrity is and go and see working examples takes a lot of focus, attention, and time. I really applaud Tony for it and that it is a value that is not shared by the masses. It is a particular type of value that is critically important certainly in business as well.

How Tony Maintains His Relevance In Different Circles Of Life 

When it comes to storytelling, Tony learned that knowing when you’ve said so much is an important part of being a CEO or a visionary. It's about a fine line between really taking them on a journey, but at the same time, not talking beyond. There were so many times this happened where he needed to be on point talking to the fund managers because their attention span is short. But it’s a little bit different with the Booktopia team because they’re investing a lot of their own personal future and their career in the company.

Having A Mentor In Life 

Tony didn’t really have a specific mentor. Obviously now he’s got a chairman and other board members. But on an internal journey, he believes that the quality of your life is determined by the quality of questions you asked. So Tony has been asking questions of anyone across the industry or whether it’s in the financial markets, but there’s never been somebody he could say his counsel or his mentor.

He remembered when he was starting his own company, he decided to consult with Brian Sher since he's pretty good at marketing. He paid him $1,500 and spent lots of one hour with him but Tony realised he knew more than him.

The best thing that he got out of doing that was the confidence within him to go out there and create and manifest what he needed to do. He didn’t need to have somebody with their own experience advising and paying out money for them to do that.

What Tony got from his conversation with Brian that served him very well was his advice, “Don't worry about your profit and loss. Don't worry about your balance sheet. Just focus on your cash flow.”

 It’s worth every penny for Tony. The biggest mentor he has now is his wife, his CEO at home. Of course his parents and many other people but not to the level where he says, “That’s my coach.”

Tony Being a Brand

Tony has a little story that he tells people, which he tries and gives entrepreneurs some insight into how his brand worked for him and how it served him as a leader of a company. 

“Imagine you're in a Maserati, and a Maserati is an Italian sports car. Of course, as Italian sports cars are prone to do, they need to sometimes end up in the workshop with the mechanic and the mechanic on this particular day when you drop the Maserati off gives you the loaner and the loaner is a two-door 15-year-old Fiat.

So, off you go in the loaner which you're used to taking and this particular day, you've got a very important client meeting down the Double Bay or Toorak or wherever you are in which city and you've got to get to this appointment because it’s a big and important deal. 

And you think to yourself, “I'm just going to park onto the back streets”. But lo and behold, on this particular day, there are no parking spots in the back of the back streets of Double Bay.

So there's only one spot in front of the restaurant where you've got to take because on time is on time and late is late and so you take that spot and you get out, get out of the car.

As you're getting out of this two-door, 15-year-old Fiat, you see your new client, they see you and they're looking at the car. You've got to be able to get out of that car as you.

Just because you're getting out of that car is no reflection on how that meeting is going to go. The fact that you can get out of that car and be present without any judgment or any kind of negative energy around that is super important.”

Tony states that you are not your spouse, you're not your kids or your kid’s academic results. You are not your company and you have got to be able to have that separation to be able to look at the business as its own organism, as its own individual thing and you are not it.

Tony recalls in the very beginning when he started Booktopia, he was in his apartment walking past the room where he’s worked on his business and he stopped dead in his tracks because all of the sudden, he heard the heartbeat of the business.

It took him by surprise when he remembered when it crawled, he remembered when it took its first steps, he remembered when it went to kinder for a day, for a week when it went to primary school and high school then to university and became its own individual self. 

If Tony projected his beliefs and values onto the Booktopia business, it wouldn't be a business turning over a quarter of a billion dollars. It would be probably turning over 30 million because it would have had to stay within his own values and my belief systems.

When Tony was working in the recruitment industry in the early days he attended a course and he had 15 contractors working for him, then he dropped back down to 11, and then he got it to 15 and then dropped back down to 11 again.

It was so frustrating for him that he just couldn’t break through the 15. Tony went into one workshop called Money and You Australia. He went there because he thought it was about making money but it was actually about the “YOU”. He got some insights and some clarity of thinking that within 3 months of finishing that course, he was at 30 contractors because he’s cracked through it. He let go of some beliefs and values that weren’t serving him.

Then he got stuck at 30,  but then he went back and did another course and found some more things that he got to 45, and then he got stuck there. At the end, Tony ended up with 130 contractors working for him, which as a result served Booktopia very well, all because he’s never overlaid his beliefs or his identity or who he is on the business. 

He allowed it to flourish and it’s super important for entrepreneurs or any business owners or leaders of companies to understand that because that will only stymie the business.

Final Message and Outro

As I say the best way to get control is to give it up and allow the business to flourish and really develop. Tony Nash had articulated with his Maserati story, basically being able to have the courage to stand up and say who you are, not what you do and be strong enough with your own brand and I think he’s demonstrated that so succinctly. 

It's a great way to end the discussion that we've had today. I just want to say thank you so much for Tony’s wonderful storytelling and his anecdotes. They’re just so insightful and I've learned a hell of a lot from him. 

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It Takes a Lifetime to Build a Personal Brand and 5 Seconds to Destroy It

While your reputation is, in essence, what others think of you, you have a lot of control over what influences their opinion.

As Richard Branson so aptly states, ‘All you have in life is your reputation: you may be very rich, but if you lose your good name, then you’ll never be happy. The thought will always lurk at the back of your mind that people don’t trust you.’ 

Your reputation comprises formal and informal factors, which we’ll discuss in more detail. 

Formal Factors

Official qualifications from recognised institutions and endorsements from powerful people are formal factors that form part of your reputation. These things hone your skills. 

In Outliers: The story of success by Malcolm Gladwell, he creates the 10,000 hours argument. You put a lot of time and effort into learning and developing your skills behind the scenes before you can apply them. Think about the Beatles: they played to different audiences in Hamburg around eight hours a night before they decided they were prepared to venture further afield.

While it certainly is doable to become a highly regarded leader without formal qualifications or institutional recognition, it is still the exception. In most fields, tertiary education is an important start.

Some institutions are regarded as having a higher level of recognition or value than others. That is, a business degree from Harvard, Oxford, MIT, London School of Economics, Cambridge, or INSEAD is recognised more highly than a degree from a smaller university that isn’t as well known. 

Here are some examples more relevant in the Australian context:

• the Australian Institute of Company Directors

• the CEO Institute

• CEDA (Committee for Economic Development of Australia)

• TEC (The Executive Connection)

• YPO (Young Presidents Organization)

• the Lowy Institute

• the Business Council of Australia

• Rotary

• the Private Wealth Network

Informal Factors

The informal factors of your reputation are those that you establish yourself on a personal level, namely your values and actions.

As Henry Ford says, ‘You can’t build a reputation on what you are going to do.’ You need to establish your values and constantly maintain them through your actions.

Here are some ways to take action on your values:

• Stay true to your word and do what you say you will. The best way to gain people’s trust is by being reliable and dependable.

• Have a mindset of helping other people realise their potential and reach their goals. Go above and beyond thinking about yourself and your own advancement.

• If you exceed people’s expectations, you will be noticed. Doing so will make you stand out as a positive role model.

• Show and operate with integrity. Fight for the good and stand up against what is wrong.

• Be consistent in the performance of your values. Steady and reliable behaviour leads to predictable actions.

• Engage with your community by getting to know people. Be available to give back your time and resources.

• Be thoughtful about your actions. Before you act, think about whether you’re proud of who you are and what you’re doing. Is what you’re doing worthy of your best self?

• Take responsibility for your actions and be accountable for your mistakes and failures.

Key Takeaways

Everything you say and do in your life impacts your personal brand, and in turn, your reputation.

Some of these things we can control. The formal factors that influence your reputation include your qualification and from which institution.

The informal factors are also up to you to control, but they can be more difficult as they take continuous work to maintain. A simple slip-up can damage a reputation that has taken years to build.

A great way to maintain the informal factors of your reputation is by thinking before speaking or acting. If you wouldn’t want those words or actions to appear in a newspaper, rather don’t say or do them.